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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#451
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't give up, they appealed. Most of the appeals, as I recall, were also decided on procedural grounds, but by that time it was (IIRC) "this is moot, we're not going to overturn the result of an election that was decided last year". If I've gotten any of my facts wrong, corrections (preferably with links) would be welcome — I don't have time right now to go dig up five-year-old news articles, I'm in the middle…

> They didn't give up, they appealed. Most of the appeals, as I recall, were also decided on procedural grounds, but by that time it was (IIRC) "this is moot, we're not going to overturn the result of an election that was decided last year". > If I've gotten any of my facts wrong, corrections (preferably with links) would be welcome See "Post-Election Cases Decided on the Merits" in [1]. How do you reconcile the idea…

Unless there are others that reached the fact-finding stage, that's 10 out of 62, meaning 52 were not decided on the merits. So "most" being decided on procedural grounds is still correct, IMHO. But thanks for the link, that's useful info.

As for your "How do you reconcile ..." question, I'll assume that the summaries of those ten cases are correct (I don't have time to read all ten of them for myself), and look through them one by one:

First one, Trump v. Biden (Wis. Dec. 14, 2020): three out of four claims tossed for not being filed in a timely manner. Fourth claim, "that voters wrongfully declared themselves indefinitely confined", ruled against Trump because "Trump challenged the status of all voters who claimed an indefinitely confined status, rather than individual voters". Not expert enough on relevant law to know what that means, but it looks to me like this one was "your claim is overbroad and you can't prove it" rather than "your claim is false", and I don't understand how that case relates to vote fraud. (Perhaps someone more informed about relevant law can explain this one to me).

Second one, Trump v. Wis. Elecs. Comm’n (E.D. Wis. Dec. 12, 2020): Trump claimed that "Wisconsin officials violated his rights under the Electors Clause because said officials allegedly issued guidance on state election statutes that deviated significantly from the requirements of Wisconsin’s election statutes." Court ruled that "interpretations of election administration rules do not fall under the meaning of “Manner” in the Electors Clause" and even if they did, the officials had "acted consistently with, and as expressly authorized by, the Wisconsin Legislature". Again, I don't understand how this one specifically relates to vote fraud, it looks like an argument about whether laws were followed. Perhaps the laws being followed were highly relevant to vote fraud, but someone will have to explain that one to me as well.

Third, King v. Whitmer (E.D. Mich. Dec. 7, 2020): First part was a decision about whether the law was followed. "Second, the district court found the plaintiffs’ Equal Protection claim to be too speculative, finding no evidence that physical ballots were altered." This one is a case where the court said "you haven't presented evidence of fraud".

Fourth, Ward v. Jackson (Ariz. Sup. Ct., Maricopa Cnty. Dec. 4, 2020): This was a decision that the plaintiff showed insufficient evidence of fraud.

Fifth, Law v. Whitmer (Nev. Dist. Ct., Carson City Dec. 4, 2020): Plaintiffs failed to prove "that there had been either a voting device malfunction or the counting of illegal/improper votes in a manner sufficient to raise reasonable doubt as to the election’s outcome." Actual decision on the merits saying "not enough evidence of fraud".

Sixth, Donald J. Trump for President v. Boockvar (M.D. Pa. Nov. 21, 2020): Court found that Trump lacked standing, but decided on the merits of his case. "The district court held that different counties implementing different types of notice-and-cure policies (many implementing none) did not violate the Equal Protection Clause because the clause does not require complete equality in all situations—“a classification resulting in ‘some inequality’ will be upheld unless it is based on an inherently suspect characteristic or ‘jeopardizes the exercise of a fundamental right.’”" Again, unless I'm misunderstanding the case, not a decision about "you didn't show evidence of fruad", but rather about whether election law was followed correctly. (If I understand right, "notice-and-cure" policies means a voter says "Hey, something's fishy here" and the election board has been put on notice and must "cure", resolve, the alleged problem. Which is relevant to fraud, but does not mean this was a decision where the judge said "you didn't provide enough evidence".)

Seventh, Wood v. Raffensperger (N.D. Ga. Nov. 20, 2020): first claim dismissed because "there was no disparate treatment among Georgia voters". Second claim dismissed because "Secretary Brad Raffensperger had not overridden or rewritten any state law". Third claim dismissed because "there is no individual constitutional right to observe the electoral process (i.e., monitor an audit or vote recount)". Again, maybe there's something I'm missing, but this doesn't look like a decision on whether there was evidence, or lack thereof, of fraud.

Eighth, Bower v. Ducey (D. Ariz. Dec. 9, 2020): Did address claims of fraud, saying plaintiffs had not presented evidence, merely speculation that fraud "could" have occurred or was statistically likely, which the court did not find to meet evidentiary standards. So this one was indeed a decision on the evidence.

Ninth, Costantino v. City of Detroit (3d Jud. Ct. Wayne Cnty. Nov. 13, 2020): Dismissed at preliminary injunction stage; "the court found that the plaintiffs’ claims of fraud would unlikely prevail on the merits" because "many plaintiffs failed to include crucial information in their allegations, such as locations of alleged misconduct, frequency of alleged misconduct, names of those involved in alleged misconduct, and so on." So in a rushed case filed a week or so after the election, plaintiffs didn't put together enough evidence, and the judge said "We don't need to proceed to fact-finding, I can tell your case is weak before I even look at the details".

Arizona Republican Party v. Fontes (Ariz. Sup. Ct., Maricopa Cty.): "The court noted that the relief plaintiff sought—an additional hand count of ballots—was not legally available due to the suit’s numerous procedural defects. The court found that plaintiff did not adequately assess the validity of their claims before filing the suit, and thus failed to prove that the county had inappropriately applied the statute in question." Decided on procedural grounds, not actually evidentiary grounds.

So of the ten cases in that list, five (cases 1, 2, 6, 7, and 10) were not actually cases where the judge ruled on evidence of fraud, as far as I can tell. (Again, corrections on specifics welcome if I misunderstood one of these). The other five were decided on "you don't show convincing evidence of fraud", though I question whether #9 should count in that list because it was a preliminary injunction rather than reaching the fact-finding stage.

So that's five, or possibly four if you discount number nine but let's count it for the sake of argument, cases out of the 62 where the court went as far as ruling on the evidence.

And I have no trouble reconciling the idea of widespread fraud with five court cases where plaintiffs couldn't prove it. Because in many cases, the kind of fraud people are claiming happened (note that I have not actually investigated those claims) are things that would be extremely hard to prove afterwards, such as people walking up to an unguarded ballot dropoff location and stuffing 50 ballots into it. We know that happened in some places, because a few times the person was caught on video. But how do you prove, to a court's satisfaction, that that was someone committing fraud, as opposed to someone helpfully collecting ballots for friends and family so they didn't have to drive downtown?

No, if fraud is happening then the way to prevent it is by putting rules in place to make it hard, rather than court cases afterwards. It's very very hard to prove certain kinds of election fraud (such as alleged ballot-stuffing) were fraudulent. But it's a lot easier (not easy, mind you) to put rules in place, like requiring some form of official photo ID for verification, that make fraud harder to commit.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#452
post #428

While this sounds like it allowed remote voting, it's interesting that some places (e.g. The Netherlands) went back to 100% paper instead of voting machines. That causes counting to take quite some time, with estimates/interim counts in between. I don't understand why voting machines can't just print your vote on a piece of paper behind a plastic window for you to see while also recoding the vote in a database. That…

>I don't understand why voting machines can't just print your vote on a piece of paper behind a plastic window for you to see while also recoding the vote in a database If it's counted electronically from the database, the piece of paper is completely worthless. Unless you can get the entire voting population to give you their paper and then count them, you will never know if the count is right. If a hacker switched…

you can count the paper votes only in your voting point/building. If there are abnormalities you can alert other people to trigger the global recounting

Yes, it's not foolproof, attacker can just modify the electronic voting data in places where he knows people don't usually do recounting. But it makes his job harder

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#453
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not even about understanding. It is about how easy it is to distrust it. Contrary to what nerds think, the goal of elections isn't to get bulletproof results by mathematical standards. The goal is to create agreeable consent among those who voted. A good election system is one where even sworn enemies can begrudgingly agree on the result. A paper ballot system has the advantage that it can be monitored by any g…

> The goal is to create agreeable consent among those who voted. If you still consistently miscount so that popular power isn't aligned with the electoral results, you will still face all the problems a democracy was designed to avoid. Starting with violent protests and revolutions. But then, most countries fail this at other stages already.

So you double-count, you checksum (our table just tallied 100 ballots, do our vote counts sum to 100? good, keep going), you checksum some more (does our total vote count amount to the number of registered votes in this poll station), you film everything, and ideally you do this with volunteers drafted on election day.

This isn't rocket science.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#454
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yeah, I see now that I've refreshed. Yes, it will get tricky with the current Supremes. Hopefully the signs we're seeing around Obstruction and Contempt in the federal courts lately indicate the _maybe_ the Judiciary is finding it's backbone. I don't have much hope for Congress doing the same.

> Yes, it will get tricky with the current Supremes. Hopefully the signs we're seeing around Obstruction and Contempt in the federal courts lately indicate the _maybe_ the Judiciary is finding it's backbone. How could the Supreme Court justify Congress could not decide elections of Congress?

It's unlikely that they could because of the ... well the Elections Clause other than the Senators bit I suppose.

My broader point was that the Judical Branch itself is starting to show some signs of backbone regarding the unchecked flexing going on in the Executive Branch. I was more talking about where you said:

> Experts said no. But this Supreme Court surprised experts before.

That generally, maybe, hopefully the Executive Branch will get a surprise or two as well.

I can be naively hopeful at times.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#455
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia has a system where you are anonymous and can prove that you only voted once: You have to be registered and must vote within your electorate, so your name appears on a certified list for that electorate and each voting location has that list. When you vote, they strike your name from the list. After the election, the lists from these locations are compared. Anyone who votes twice has their name struck twice,…

How does that prove that you only voted once? If I know someone's name and address (and by extension their electorate) I can rock up and vote as as many as I want.

Then you go to jail (penalty is 6 months for impersonating a person and voting on their behalf.) It's not like polling locations don't have cameras.

(A few people voting more than once is unlikely to change the results of an election. If enough fraud is detected to impact the results, they'll run a new election.)

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#456
post #382
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you register to vote, you give your address as well as proof of eligibility to vote. That address is used to assign you a polling place, and also as an additional piece of data needed in order to filter out fakers. Your voting eligibility is checked before being added to the list, which also mitigates fakers. If you're trying to register in someone else's name, you have to pray that they don't register themselve…

Yes, it's unlikely that people are illegally voting in person in large numbers. It is relatively easy to do so, and the risk is relatively low, if you approach it intelligently (e.g. vote as someone who is registered, but highly unlikely to vote -- even if they do vote, you're highly unlikely to be caught anyway). However, there's just no incentive for individuals to do so, because the reward is very low: each indivi…

Buying ballots on a large scale seems difficult to me, because you have to keep a large group of strangers from talking. They will brag to their friends and family members and the information will come out. I can only imagine people buying a few ballots from their apolitical family members.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#457
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA threads the needle by simply not having verifiable voting. And it turns out it works pretty well. Despite countless hours and lawsuits dedicated to finding people who voted more than once, only a handful of cases have actually turned up. It's not that there are no checks. You have to give your name, and they know if you've voted more than once at that station that day. To vote more than once you'd have to pre…

>And it turns out it works pretty well. Does it? This is the third election in a row where the losing party claim the election was not legitimate and/or hacked.

Just to be clear, the 2024 election was indeed compromised. Salt Typhoon (China) hacked the communications of both campaigns due to massive cybersecurity failures in law enforcement portals of all major US telecommunications companies.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The filled out ballot is intended to be fully anonymous. It is then slipped into a security sleeve to make it harder to read within the envelope. The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Security is provided by the envelope which is the attestation that the citizen cast their ballot. Offhand, the county voting office is likely required to retain the ballot as part of the state/federal records. I haven't chec…

Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, it is just a sheet of paper with votes on it. There's no name, serial number, or signature on it. Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. Printing the ballots on security paper will not eliminate this risk, but it will make it much harder. I don't know if there is an auditable "chain of custody" of ballots from mailbox to the counting center. The fraud here w…

> Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected.

The whole envelope opening and ballot counting process is recorded and streamed live from multiple angles.

https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-a...

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The filled out ballot is intended to be fully anonymous. It is then slipped into a security sleeve to make it harder to read within the envelope. The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Security is provided by the envelope which is the attestation that the citizen cast their ballot. Offhand, the county voting office is likely required to retain the ballot as part of the state/federal records. I haven't chec…

Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, it is just a sheet of paper with votes on it. There's no name, serial number, or signature on it. Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. Printing the ballots on security paper will not eliminate this risk, but it will make it much harder. I don't know if there is an auditable "chain of custody" of ballots from mailbox to the counting center. The fraud here w…

There's bigger issue than stuffing. In "rural" Hungary chain voting is customary where people are taken to the voting place by gangs and are either awarded with some money or a bag of potatoes, or threatened to be beaten if they do not comply. The first voter of the chain goes in, takes the ballot, hides it and takes it out. It is then pre-filled by the gang. The next voters take the prefilled ballot in, throw it in the box and bring a fresh clean ballot out, and so on...

In other cases, people get money/bag of potatoes for a photo of their correctly filled ballot.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?

How is it a high bar of proof if it is already required? Edit: and already met

How many documents can be used to prove your citizenship? How many times do people have to go back to the DMV because they forgot something or another? Now imagine that everyone has one shot to get that right on voting day.
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