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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#451

Post by b112 »

db48x wrote: post #408
b112 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere I've been, the owner of the car gets the ticket, and it's up to them to figure out if they were driving, or if not them, collect from whomever they loaned the car to. No camera I've ever seen tries to figure out who the driver is. The logic is, it's your car, you're responsible for loaning it/owning it, so you get the fine. Don't like that? Don't loan your car out. The trade off is no points are deducted f…

> … the owner of the car gets the ticket, and it's up to them to figure out if they were driving, … That's exactly what makes it unconstitutional here in the US. The Constitution specifically requires that they have evidence of who committed the crime _before_ charging someone with it. If you do it the other way around then you are making an assumption about who is guilty in advance of the evidence.

It's not a crime, it's a fine, and are you suggesting parking tickets don't exist in the US?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#452

Post by linkregister »

sowbug wrote: post #409
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I get your point, but I doubt the fine could have been ethically higher. Domino's drivers killed dozens of people in speed-related accidents before they ended their 30-minute guarantee. I don't think our society is ready for the combination of automatic enforcement and truly punitive penalties. We readily demonize the accused; just having your mugshot taken can end your employability. Yet many of us break laws daily…

It is understandable that someone who only lived in the United States or a low-enforcement place would have this world view. I'm more sanguine about the trajectory of our society.

Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, etc, have well-enforced traffic laws. Speeding is the exception rather than the rule, unlike the United States, where one can expect the flow of traffic to be 10-20 miles per hour over the posted limit. Yet these societies don't suffer from an excess of enforcement or consequences in other areas. For example, it is legal to walk around in public with a bottle of beer in virtually all of Europe.

What we have seen in the United States is a reduction of many hardly-enforced laws. Jaywalking and minor drug possession have been decriminalized in several US states. This is due to voter interest. It will continue to be up to the public to decide what do to when enforcement can catch up to excessive laws.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#453

Post by limagnolia »

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #255
limagnolia wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the fifth amendment only protects your right not to incriminate yourself. So you may be called upon to testify against your will against some one else (With some limited protections for spouses and such). However, if you were in fact the one driving, you can plead the fifth, and they cannot use that fact against you to prove it was in fact you driving- they have to prove that independently. (EDIT: I should…

> they cannot use that fact against you to prove it was in fact you driving- they have to prove that independently. 5th amendment protections are much weaker for civil cases though.

Part of this judgement was that even though the law labels is as "civil" it looks and acts in fact like a criminal case, and so it doesn't matter what label they put on it, criminal standards apply.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#455

Post by underlipton »

sowbug wrote: post #439
hamdingers wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Then the bill requires that all those fines you pay go towards street calming infrastructure, eventually making it physically impossible (or at least very uncomfortable) for you to continue speeding. Kind of like if enough parents paid the late pickup fee, eventually the daycare could afford a van for dropoffs.

Don't make me say "roundabout."

There are multiple well-researched and practical interventions that can be done to make driving safer for drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Implementation in the US is regularly scuttled by insane self-styled experts who "audacity" their way to public trust and influence, inexplicably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forester_(cyclist)

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#456

Post by SecretDreams »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #423
hamdingers wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The objective evidence shows an increase in rear-end crashes but a reduction in injury and fatal crashes, offering a net overall benefit. Council et al., 2005 -- https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05048/...

There's a regression to the mean issue at work. Sometimes an intersection simply has bad luck, draws more accidents than anything about it would cause. Put a camera there, you'll see an "improvement".

One might argue the intersection itself is the problem and should be redesigned, as well as adjoining roadways feeding into the offending intersection.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#457

Post by giantg2 »

bdangubic wrote: post #412
giantg2 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the line drawn for criminal vs civil in nature? It feels like any civil case brought against an individual by a government is quasi-criminal.

this is why going to court pretty much takes care of these tickets. of course, for a lot of people, going to court costs more money than paying the ticket so people pay. disclaimer: I write software for court houses and am intimately familiar with the proceedings etc. in some jurisdictions these tickets will be outright dismissed and in others you may have to put up a bit of fight :)

"this is why going to court pretty much takes care of these tickets."

But what about things like red flag laws, child support (like the cited case law), etc?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#458

Post by cucumber3732842 »

sejje wrote: post #352
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I have noticed a severe uptick in bad semi-truck drivers on the interstate since COVID, I'll agree at least with that part. The local cops here have always just run plates for stolen vehicles. Getting a ticket is almost unheard of. I don't know what their deal is, but you can speed right past them in the other lane, or if they're just parked on the corner. I'm guessing you still can't pass them on a two-lane road wit…

That has more to do with CDL mills out there cranking out minimally qualified drivers.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#459

Post by [deleted] »

aziaziazi wrote: post #343
ggiigg wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue such enforcement does not need automation and such automation is often for revenue generation vs saftey focused. Also, I am a bit biased here after working at flock.

Is there a non-automatic light enforcement other than placing a policemen at every light - which makes the light useless? Revenu generation is a bonus point: in my country taxes that incentive smokers to quit are directed to healthcare and most of the speeding tickets revenue goes to road maintenance and safety. I’d prefer a public handling but the trend is privatization with everything : from health to education to…

[deleted]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#460

Post by cucumber3732842 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #433
hamdingers wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These cameras are by definition still cameras triggered by radar or laser systems, they're inactive unless a speeding vehicle is present. Hardly the surveillance array you're imagining.

Noooo. Most cameras retain 30 days of video. That allows officers to review the violation. These camera systems have always been about surveillance. Flock adds the Silicon Valley software process, while the older tech is “law enforcement tech”.

This. You say "but we're gonna catch people who speed" or "terrorists" or something like that and all the people who would be against your surveillance suddenly can't get enough of it.
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