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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#101

Post by dangood »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #18

We have red light cameras here in Tampa. I don't know all the details of what it takes to make a right on red and not get a ticket, so I do exaggerated stops to be sure. I know what the law claims but that doesn't matter. The real law is the actual (proprietary) code rumning in the machine. Not what the law says. Not what the contract says. Not what the requirements say. Not what the programmer thinks the code does.

Sorry, but what is the concern, that you don't know when you've crossed a red light? Or that the software is too stupid to know when a light was red?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#102

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

dolni wrote: post #51
spullara wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not required to know who is driving their registered vehicle at all times, just that anyone that is allowed to drive it has a license.

What are some scenarios where a vehicle owner knows that the vehicle is being driven by someone with a license, but not who that person is?

You have one spouse and several children, and all of them have a license and are allowed to use the car?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#103

Post by neutronicus »

spankalee wrote: post #45
db48x wrote: post #11

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that w…

Wow, that's a huge problem with that red light camera program then. The drives that run red lights around me clearly don't care much for minor consequences. The point needs to be to identify the sociopathic drivers and get them off the road.

In my jurisdiction, the GP point is irrelevant because the biggest problem drivers just ignore the fines [1].

It's very common to just have fake plates / registration, with the plan in the case of an accident to just bail out and run.

[1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#104

Post by smsm42 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Yeah, keeping this would be a dangerous precedent. If the state can presume you're guilty in a traffic case, why not extend it to other cases? Stuff like that is routinely used in legal arguments, "we are doing X so why can't we do Y which is essentially the same?" So say they'd go for "we have your phone located within the vicinity of where murder is committed, now prove you're not a murderer!" or "your license place was tagged next to the store that was robbed, now prove you didn't rob the store!"

And yes, very likely some people would abuse it to get out of traffic tickets. I'd rather have that than constitutional due process protections eroded. We're not doing super-great on that anyway, we don't need to do worse, and if some scoundrel occasionally not paying traffic ticket is a price we have to pay to avoid that, I am fine with it.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#105

Post by neutronicus »

jacquesm wrote: post #84
spankalee wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's a huge problem with that red light camera program then. The drives that run red lights around me clearly don't care much for minor consequences. The point needs to be to identify the sociopathic drivers and get them off the road.

You mistakenly believe that these camera systems are not functioning exactly as intended: they're a revenue stream. If they ended up shutting down the offenders that revenue stream would dry up. The sociopath you've identified is called a whale instead.

Not in my jurisdiction - the biggest offenders know that there's no collection mechanism with any teeth, so they just ignore the fines [1].

FWIW, despite all this the speed cameras have been effective at reducing average speeds at problem points.

[1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#106

Post by b112 »

burkaman wrote: post #97
1shooner wrote: post #4

>"I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they it's just not fair," one driver said who didn't want to be identified. The person that does the determination when you ran the light, it's just a random. Whoever they want to pick, pick you to say, okay, you're gonna pay the ticket." This is the opposite of my understanding of red light cameras. I always considered the supposed impartial application of…

This person is not articulating it well but I think they are complaining that the person identified as the driver is random. Presumably the camera can impartially identify a car running a light, but not necessarily who is driving. "I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they - it's just not fair. The person that - [let me start over] - the determination when you ran the light [of who is responsibl…

Everywhere I've been, the owner of the car gets the ticket, and it's up to them to figure out if they were driving, or if not them, collect from whomever they loaned the car to.

No camera I've ever seen tries to figure out who the driver is.

The logic is, it's your car, you're responsible for loaning it/owning it, so you get the fine. Don't like that? Don't loan your car out.

The trade off is no points are deducted from a driver's license. It's a pure fine, because they can't prove you were driving.

So the person just seems to be speaking gibberish to me.

edit:

More context...

The same logic applies for parking tickets. No one cares who parked the car, the car's owner gets the ticket... not the person who parked it. While I dislike red light cameras, the logic holds.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#107

Post by [deleted] »

jotux wrote: post #78
spankalee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is funny quote. Is the driver even disputing that they were the driver? They seem like they're just mad they got caught. Maybe they just stop running red lights?

I suspect this is some light with chronically-bad timing that gets run by tons of people every day. The camera is taking a photo with a bunch of vehicles in the frame and it's ticketing the one that had the license plate unobstructed, even if a few of the vehicles in the frame technically entered the intersection when the light was yellow. Sometimes lights are just so poorly implemented, and drivers pass through them…

[deleted]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#108

Post by lateforwork »

idle_zealot wrote: post #77
lateforwork wrote: post #19

The problem with red-light cameras is that enforcement becomes robotic. Robots are perfect—they don’t make mistakes (at least in theory), and they don’t show leniency. If policing is done by robots, then humans are expected to be infallible.

> and they don’t show leniency. If policing is done by robots, then humans are expected to be infallible. This is bad when applied to laws that were written with an exception of leniency and selectivity in enforcement, which is quite a lot of them. For running red lights though? I don't mind if the robots take you off the road automatically.

Running red lights? That's not all the cameras are used for. If are making a right turn on red and didn't come to a complete stop first you can get a ticket.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#109

Post by HDThoreaun »

crote wrote: post #81
eweise wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four people in my family drive my car. I'm supposed to track that? sure.

Your car, your problem. Either get someone to fess up, or take responsibility yourself and stop loaning it out. There really is no difference between "who drove through a red light" and "who scratched the bumper while parking" here - how do you currently solve the latter one?

Except no, that is not how it works. People get moving violation tickets, not cars.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#110

Post by [deleted] »

0x3f wrote: post #70
cromka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As usual, Europe doesn't care about internal consistency when it comes to rights. Sure. And you advocate that in exchange in US you get havoc on the roads because anyone can say "it wasn't me speeding 50 miles over the limit, bite me"? Is that the freedom you want ?

The US has a comparable per-mile road fatality rate. There's no 'havoc'.

[deleted]
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