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More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

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Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt this way for the first 30 years of my life. Then I received treatment for depression (psychoanalysis) and finally tasted joy for the first time in my entire life. Now I love life. YMMV EDIT: If you’re interested what actually happened is that I was missing the prerequisite early childhood experience that enables one to feel secure in reality. If you check, all the people who have this feeling of philosophical/…

[deleted]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it. It just worked for me and I realised that in my case the depression was a confused outlook conditioned by a certain situation.

My point really is that you can feel one way for your entire life and then suddenly feel a different way. I'm not suggesting psychoanalysis specifically. Perhaps for others, CBT or religion or just a change in life circumstances will be enough.

The fact that these philosophies are dependent on the life situation to me is a reason to be a little sceptical of their universality. In my personal experience, in those 30 years of my life, I thought everyone thought the way I did, that reality was painful and a chore and dark and dim. Psychoanalysis helped me realise that other people actually were happy to be alive, and understand why I have not been my entire life.

YMMV = not everyone hates life

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#452
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great idea to prevent bots, but that’s not who posts the bad stuff this thread is talking about. Wherever you set the threshold will determine a point of wealth where someone can no longer afford to speak on these platforms, and that inevitably will prevent change, which tends to come from the people not well-served by the system as it is, i.e. poor people. Is that your goal?

> a point of wealth where someone can no longer afford to speak on these platforms, and that inevitably will prevent change, which tends to come from the people not well-served by the system as it is, i.e. poor people. "Change" in itself is not a virtue. What I think you want is good or beneficial change? That said, what evidence do you have that poor people specifically are catalysing positive change online? > This…

> "Change" in itself is not a virtue. What I think you want is good or beneficial change? That said, what evidence do you have that poor people specifically are catalysing positive change online?

We would probably disagree on what change we think is beneficial, but in terms of catalyzing the changes I find appealing, I see plenty of it myself. I'm not sure how I could dig up a study on something like this, but I'm operating on the assumption that more poor people would advocate the changes I'm interested in than rich, because the changes I want would largely be intended to benefit the former, potentially at the expense of the latter. I see this assumption largely confirmed in the world. That's why I find the prospect of making posting expensive threatening to society's capacity for beneficial change. The effect depends on what model you use to price social media use, how high you set the prices, how you regulate the revenue, etc, but I think the effect needs to be mitigated. In essence, my primary concern with this idea is that it may come from an antidemocratic impulse, not a will to protect moderators. If you don't possess that impulse, then I'm sorry to be accusing you of motives you don't possess, and I'll largely focus on the implementation details that would best protect the moderators while mitigating the suppression of discourse.

>you can start a non-profit or foundation to subsidize "poor people online".

Where are all the foundations helping provide moderator mental health treatment? This is a pretty widely reported issue; I'd expect to see wealthy benefactors trying to solve it, yet the problem remains unsolved. The issue, I think, is that there isn't enough money or awareness to go around to solve all niche financially-addressable problems. Issues have to have certain human-interest characteristics, then be carefully and effectively framed, to attract contributions from regular people. As such, I wouldn't want to artificially create a new problem, where poverty takes away basically the only meaningful voice a regular person has in the modern age, then expect somebody to come along and solve it with a charitable foundation. Again, if charity is this effective, then let's just start a foundation to provide pay and care to moderators. Would it attract contributions?

>the crypto-bros do this when they're trying to incentivize use of their products

The crypto-bros trying to incentivize use of their products have a financial incentive to do so. They're not motivated by the kindness of their own hearts. Where's the financial incentive to pay for poor people to post online?

>There is no difference between a bot and a human as far as a network is concerned. After all, bots are run by humans.

Most implementations of this policy would largely impact bot farms. If posts cost money, then there's a very big difference in the cost of a botnet and a normal account. Costs would be massively higher for a bot farm runner, and relatively insubstantial for a normal user. Such a policy would then most effectively suppress bots, and maybe the most extreme of spammers.

What I don't understand, then, is the association between bots/spammers and the shock garbage harming moderators. From what I know, bots aren't typically trying to post abuse, but to scam or propagandize, since they're run by actors either looking for a financial return or to push an agenda. If the issue is spammers, then I'd question whether that's the cause of moderator harm; I'd figure as soon as a moderator sees a single gore post, the account would get nuked. We should expect then that the harm is proportionate to the number of accounts, not posts.

If the issue is harmful accounts in large quantity, and easy account creation, then to be effective at reducing moderator harm, wouldn't you want to charge a large, one-time fee at account creation? If it costs ten dollars to make an account, bad actors would (theoretically) be very hesitant to get banned (even though in practice this seems inadequate to, e.g., suppress cheating in online games). I'd also be relatively fine with such a policy; nearly anyone could afford a single 5-10 usd fee for indefinite use, but repeat account creators would be suppressed.

>Simply making it cost something to post online will mean that people who want to post spam can directly pay for the mental healthcare of moderators who remove their content.

I don't think that adding a cost to the posts will end up paying for mental healthcare without careful regulation. The current poor treatment of moderators is a supply-demand issue, it's a relatively low-skill job and people are hungry, so you can treat them pretty bad and still have a sufficient workforce. They are also, if I'm correct, largely outsourced from places with worse labor protections. This gives the social media companies very little incentive to pay them more or treat them better.

An approach that might help is something like this: Require companies to charge a very small set amount to make each individual post, such that a normal user may pay in the realm of 5 usd in a month of use, but a spammer or bot farm would have to spend vastly more. Furthermore, but very important, require that this additional revenue be spent directly on the pay or healthcare of the moderation team.

In reality, though, I'd be very worried that this secondary regulation wouldn't enter or make it through a legislature. I'm also concerned that the social media companies would be the ones setting the prices. If such a cost became the norm, I expect that these companies would implement the cost-to-post as a subscription to the platform rather than a per-post price. They would immediately begin to inflate their prices as every subscription-based company currently does to demonstrate growth to shareholders. Finally, they'd pocket the gains rather than paying more to the moderators, since they have absolutely zero incentive to do anything else. I think this would cause the antidemocratic outcomes I'm concerned with.

My question for you, then, is whether you'd be interested in government regulation that implements a flat per-post or per-account-creation fee, not much more than 5usd monthly or 10usd on creation, not adjustable by the companies, and with the requirement that its revenue be spent on healthcare and pay for the moderation team?

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#453
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artificially creating local market rates by trapping people is.

In what sense were these local rates "created artificially"? Are you suggesting that these people are being forced to work agaisnt their will?

In the sense that I named twice above. ;)

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are discounting the complexity of the logistics required for an AK47 army. You need ammo, spare parts, lubricant and cleaning tools. You need a factory to build the weapon, and churn out ammunition. Or, gather a group of people, tell them to find a rock, and go bash the other sides head.

> You need ammo, spare parts, lubricant and cleaning tools. The ak-47 famously only needs the first item in that list. That being the key to its popularity.

If you think the AKs in use in Russia and Ukraine aren’t getting regular maintenance, cleaning and spare parts, I don’t think you’re watching enough of the content coming out of the war zone.

Soldiering isn’t sexy, it’s digging trenches, cleaning kit, and eating concussive blasts waiting to fight or die.

You don’t sit in a bunker all day waiting to defend a trench and not clean your gun.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need ammo, spare parts, lubricant and cleaning tools. The ak-47 famously only needs the first item in that list. That being the key to its popularity.

It should be noted that the purported advantages of AK action over its competitors in this regard are rather drastically overstated in popular culture. E.g. take a look at these two vids showing how AK vs AR-15 handle lots of mud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX73uXs3xGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAneTFiz5WU As far as cleaning, AK, like many guns of that era, carries its own cleaning & maintenance toolkit in…

Main advantage in the Ukraine conflict for AKs is the ammo availablility.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it. It just worked for me and I realised that in my case the depression was a confused outlook conditioned by a certain situation. My point really is that you can feel one way for your entire life and then suddenly feel a different way. I'm not suggesting psychoanal…

> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

I’m not sure why people act coy when a straightforward mirroring of their own comment is presented. “What could this mean?” Maybe the hope is that the other person will bore the audience by explaining the joke?

> I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it.

Talking about your infant parental relationship as the be-all-end-all looks indistinguishable from that.

> > If you check, all the people who have this feeling of philosophical/ontological pessimism have a missing or damaged relationship with the mother in the first year or so.

.

> I'm not suggesting psychoanalysis specifically. Perhaps for others, CBT or religion or just a change in life circumstances will be enough.

Except for people who have “this feeling of philosophical/ontological pessimism”.

> > For them, not even Buddhism can help, since even the abstract idea of anything good, even if it requires transcendence, is a joke

Which must paint everyone who defends “suffering” in the Vedic sense. Since that was what you were replying to. (Saying that reality is suffering on-the-whole is not the same as “I’m depressed [, and please give me anecdotes about how you overcame it]”.)

> > The fact that these philosophies are dependent on the life situation to me is a reason to be a little sceptical of their universality. In my personal experience, in those 30 years of my life, I thought everyone thought the way I did, that reality was painful and a chore and dark and dim. Psychoanalysis helped me realise that other people actually were happy to be alive, and understand why I have not been my entire life.

I don’t know how broad your brush is. But believing in the originally Vedic (Schopenhauer was inspired by Eastern religions, maybe Buddhism in particular) concept of “suffering” is not such a fragile intellectual framework that it collapses once you heal from the trauma when your mother scolded you while potty training at a crucial point in your Anal Stage of development.

> YMMV = not everyone hates life

Besides any point whatever.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it. It just worked for me and I realised that in my case the depression was a confused outlook conditioned by a certain situation. My point really is that you can feel one way for your entire life and then suddenly feel a different way. I'm not suggesting psychoanal…

> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I’m not sure why people act coy when a straightforward mirroring of their own comment is presented. “What could this mean?” Maybe the hope is that the other person will bore the audience by explaining the joke? > I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it. Talking about your infant parental relationship…

Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this

And the Vedic version of suffering is all full of love for reality, not wanting to delete it by smashing a button

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#458
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many common situations where professionals are helpless, like people that needs to clean up dead bodies after an accident.

Imagine if this becomes a specialized, remote job where one tele-operates the brain and blood scrubbing robot all workday long, accident, after accident after accident. I am sure they'd get PTSD too, airey, sometime it's just oil and coolant, but there's still a lot of body-tissue involved.

I'd really like to see more data on this. I really think (most) people would be desensitized and not become hyper sensitive to this content.

Another fascet to this is the moderators willfully agreed to review this content and had full autonomy to leave the job at any point.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#459
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we will upload your pictures unencrypted and do with them as we like Curious, I did not realize Apple sent themselves a copy of all my data, even if I have no cloud account and don't share or upload anything. Is that true?

Apple doesn't do this. But other service providers do (Dropbox, Google, etc). Other service providers can scan for CSAM from the cloud, but Apple cannot. So Apple might be one of the largest CSAM hosts in the world, due to this 'feature'.

> Other service providers can scan for CSAM from the cloud

I thought the topic was on-device scanning? The great-grandparent claim seemed to be that Apple had to choose between automatically uploading photos encrypted and not scanning them, vs. automatically uploading photos unencrypted and scanning them. The option for "just don't upload stuff at all, and don't scan it either" was conspicuously absent from the list of choices.

Why, do other phone manufacturers do this auto-upload-and-scan without asking?

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I’m not sure why people act coy when a straightforward mirroring of their own comment is presented. “What could this mean?” Maybe the hope is that the other person will bore the audience by explaining the joke? > I don't look up to Freud and psychoanalysis doesn't work for everyone! I don't even necessarily recommend it. Talking about your infant parental relationship…

Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this And the Vedic version of suffering is all full of love for reality, not wanting to delete it by smashing a button

> Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this

You trained personally for a few years and yet you make such sweeping statements/strokes that a neophyte is prompted to point out basic facts about this practice (apparently an adequate retelling since you don’t bother to correct me)? You might think this bolsters something (?) but I think the case is the opposite.

It helps to point out exactly what part that you are talking about (apparently not the Vedic gang). In fact this initial reply (just the above paragraph before the edit) seemed so out of place. Okay, so what are they talking about?

> And the Vedic version of suffering is all full of love for reality, not wanting to delete it by smashing a button

Oh, so it’s about the small wish to commit biocide.

It’s a clear category error to talk about love/want/hate when it comes to that statement. Because that’s beside the point. The point is clearly the wrongheaded, materialistic assumption that suffering will end if all life would end by the press of a button. And if you think that life on the whole is suffering? Then pressing the button is morally permissible.

It’s got nothing to do with hate.

It seemed interesting to me that someone would have such a “Schopenhauer” (not that I have read him) view of existence. You don’t see that every day.

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