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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#451
post #189
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...yes? Have you looked at Indian names? Or Indonesian names? Or Ethiopian names

Yes. The vast majority of them follow a small number of simple patterns, and it's really not that hard to find a heuristic that interprets them with high accuracy.

What everyone is saying is that you do less work, use 0 heuristics and guess absolutely nothing, to get 100% accuracy.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#452
post #348
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title is the one that always confuses me since titles are basically non-existent here. It seems really like a really important thing in the Anglosphere and I have no idea why. I just always pick "Dr" when I'm forced to pick one. So far it has never made any difference.

(PhD) Dr. is a funny one in the Anglosphere and also at least parts of continental Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It's sort of a big deal in academia and some percentage of other people feel pretty attached to the title. For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for.

> It's sort of a big deal in academia and some percentage of other people feel pretty attached to the title.

Having been yelled at by colleagues for opting to not include Dr. on my own freaking business cards - here here.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#453
post #67

Just have a single "name field" and maybe preferred name, which is not the same. The family/given name format doesn't make much sense here. Indian name: Sathiavelllu Arunachalam, known as SA or Seth SE Asian ethnic Chinese names: Harry Lee Kuan Yew, (English name) (Surname) (Given name). Hated the name Harry and got it removed, though many Chinese are referred to by an English name. Indonesian name: Fatimah Azzahra (…

Like many folks in Latin America, I have two given names and two surnames (no hyphen). I run into IT systems that choke at my two surnames every now and then and it's a pain. Introducing a hyphen isn't great: it doesn't match my legal name and it's awkward because some people do have a hyphenated surname plus another surname. I've also met several people whose legal name doesn't include a surname.

> Like many folks in Latin America, I have two given names and two surnames (no hyphen). I run into IT systems that choke at my two surnames every now and then and it's a pain.

You presumably have a formal name: A B C D, with A and B being your two given names, C and D being your two surnames.

So what does it say on your ID?

Your birth certificate if you have no ID?

Does your countries revenue service address you as "Dear A B", "Mr C D", "Dear A", "Mr D" or something else altogether?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#454
post #449
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impression I get from some people I know with PhDs (or equivalent from schools that use different names) is that, in a non-academic/research setting, they feel that emphasizing their degree can come across as a sort of superior attitude working alongside a lot of talented people with various degrees (or lack thereof)—especially to the degree that whatever their thesis was in however many years ago may have next t…

Yeah certainly, and even at university most lecturers I had I think were 'just call me (first name)'. I just meant that I can't think of anything else at that level that we don't use (sometimes/to the same not-100% extent) an honourific for. In many countries (not North America I know) medicine is a lesser qualification (Bachelor of each Medicine & Surgery, MBBS or BMBS) but we still use it, so it seemed to me the ar…

I don't think so. As you say, not any sort of Masters degree. And even though the standard JD for lawyers has "doctor" in it, no one calls anyone with a standard 3 year law degree "doctor." Obviously there are aristocratic and clerical titles as well--in addition to various certifications (though those don't usually have a prefix-type title--mostly positions like Judge do).

>Yeah certainly, and even at university most lecturers I had I think were 'just call me (first name)'.

Of course not all lecturers have doctorates and you also get into the very academia "Professor" sensitivity.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#455
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

I certainly don't mind being called "Mr.", but I don't see why it can't just be another field, or part of a free-text field.

In an industry wide panic we renamed git master to git main, right after realtors renamed the "master bedroom", yet we're all continuing with an abbreviated "Master" or "Mistress".

Nobody said society was rational.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#456
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

I'm privy to Software for titles.

Hmm, Software Barbarian, I like it.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume in these languages you can get away with either not using the name, or going for a neutral form (same as when you don't know who you're speaking to) French has that gendered structure too, with workarounds to manage uncertainty.

There are many Indian languages where verb conjugations are either male or female and there is no neutral option.

By curiosity how do you deal with generic instructions ? Like if you needed to have "you will need to come to this counter to apply for special discounts" printed next to a ticketing machine ?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#458
20+ years in Asia here. Have run many sites/apps and filled in many forms. Here is what you do:

Full name field. (Optional) Title field. (Optional) Display name preference. (Super optional) Allow the user to duplicate ALL of these fields for EACH IANA/ISO language, eg. many people may have a Chinese or Thai name and also a separate English name with zero relation.

Read https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-... and note there is an unwritten set of similar fallacies regarding signatures, plus an addresses version at https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-a...

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't that it's first and last, it's to avoid an implicit assumption that they are in a particular order. That semantic correspondence is exactly what changing to given/family is supposed to preserve. Yes, there are people with only one. There is/was a fairly well-known example in UK network infrastructure circles. That's a problem in either system if you make the fields required. Given/family removes ambig…

> Given/family removes ambiguity for a larger number of humans than first/last, I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party. After all, what exactly do you mean by "Family Name" and how sure are you that meaning you have is shared by even a significant minority of cultures and people? How many countries have passports that label each name i…

> I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party.

It adds cognitive load because I've not seen a system where first/last name is not a synonym for given/family name, except it also indicates the system designer is not aware of alternative ordering for names and is forcing me to decide between correct order/incorrect semantic vs. incorrect order/correct semantic, so it's always a game of guessing what the system will subsequently try to display my name as if I enter it in a certain way.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many Indian languages where verb conjugations are either male or female and there is no neutral option.

By curiosity how do you deal with generic instructions ? Like if you needed to have "you will need to come to this counter to apply for special discounts" printed next to a ticketing machine ?

Generally, male gender is presumed if a neutral form is not available.
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