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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#441

Post by croes »

danparsonson wrote: post #238
croes wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an article showing a solution because listing problems is the easy part? And maybe it's just me but >because names are central to our identities, virtually by definition. isn't true, my name is for the outside world, inside I'm just I, that's my identity.

>>because names are central to our identities, virtually by definition. >isn't true, my name is for the outside world, inside I'm just I, that's my identity. What happens in your head when someone calls your name? Surely that's a feeling of identity?

>What happens in your head when someone calls your name? Surely that's a feeling of identity?

I realize that someone is talking to me, but that has nothing to do with my identity. I doubt that that person and I have the same perception of who I am.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#442

Post by tomjakubowski »

coldacid wrote: post #411
scarby2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also get this with Lord and I'd assume Baron, count, Duke, viscount or their feminine equivalents. I do wonder what would happen if I used a tile that was not used in the UK.

Move to Britain, change your given name to Graf (that's German for the title of count/earl), and get a passport. I'm curious to see what the result would be, myself.

How about just changing your name to Earl?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#443

Post by croes »

brigandish wrote: post #156
croes wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an article showing a solution because listing problems is the easy part? And maybe it's just me but >because names are central to our identities, virtually by definition. isn't true, my name is for the outside world, inside I'm just I, that's my identity.

You don't refer to yourself in private by your own name?

No, I refer to myself as I.

Without others I would never use my name.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#444

Post by coldacid »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #442
coldacid wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Move to Britain, change your given name to Graf (that's German for the title of count/earl), and get a passport. I'm curious to see what the result would be, myself.

How about just changing your name to Earl?

Already (implicitly) mentioned in the gp.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#445

Post by pphysch »

Store "names" as a JSON document per person, and provide different view functions that construct a "full name" string based on that data and localized standards/conventions. You have infinite flexibility with nominal (heh) overhead.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#446

Post by ghaff »

OJFord wrote: post #434
ghaff wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(PhD) Dr. is a funny one in the Anglosphere and also at least parts of continental Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It's sort of a big deal in academia and some percentage of other people feel pretty attached to the title. For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for.

> For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for. Like what? Doesn't that argument work the other way around, that lots of people have equivalent or higher degrees than medicos, but only the latter are called doctors at their place of work? All I can think is things like EngD, but I'd think those holders are as likely as PhDs t…

The impression I get from some people I know with PhDs (or equivalent from schools that use different names) is that, in a non-academic/research setting, they feel that emphasizing their degree can come across as a sort of superior attitude working alongside a lot of talented people with various degrees (or lack thereof)—especially to the degree that whatever their thesis was in however many years ago may have next to nothing with what they do today.

I have no particular stake in the question though. Totally understand that people are proud of their achievement.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#447

Post by lowbloodsugar »

Do other countries have a concept of a “legal” name? Like someone said their names are a set that can be in any order or just pick one: does the government insist on a single specific order for interacting with them and with, eg banks?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#448

Post by lelanthran »

regularfry wrote: post #171
zarzavat wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree with their advice to use “Family name” and “Given name”, over “First name” and “Last name”. Everybody has a First name and Last name (unless they are mononymic), even if this doesn’t correspond semantically to what the writer of the form anticipated. Many people don’t have a Family name and this creates user confusion when filling out forms.

The point isn't that it's first and last, it's to avoid an implicit assumption that they are in a particular order. That semantic correspondence is exactly what changing to given/family is supposed to preserve. Yes, there are people with only one. There is/was a fairly well-known example in UK network infrastructure circles. That's a problem in either system if you make the fields required. Given/family removes ambig…

> Given/family removes ambiguity for a larger number of humans than first/last,

I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party.

After all, what exactly do you mean by "Family Name" and how sure are you that meaning you have is shared by even a significant minority of cultures and people? How many countries have passports that label each name in the name field as a "given" name or a "family name"? How many countries have their revenue service care about whether a "given" name is to be used or a "family" name?

OTOH, to figure out which name is first and which name is last, all the user has to do is look at their ID, which they have presumably seen thousands of times already.

First/last at least has the benefit that, to the user filling in the form, they don't have to think about it - the first name on the ID goes first, the last name on their ID goes last. They can leave out anything in the middle because the form didn't ask them for it!

The problem isn't the NAME, the problem is the addressing of that person which can be only be solved by by adding a field for addressing, and where it can't be solved (titles, honorifics, etc), then given/family name won't solve it either.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#449

Post by OJFord »

ghaff wrote: post #446
OJFord wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for. Like what? Doesn't that argument work the other way around, that lots of people have equivalent or higher degrees than medicos, but only the latter are called doctors at their place of work? All I can think is things like EngD, but I'd think those holders are as likely as PhDs t…

The impression I get from some people I know with PhDs (or equivalent from schools that use different names) is that, in a non-academic/research setting, they feel that emphasizing their degree can come across as a sort of superior attitude working alongside a lot of talented people with various degrees (or lack thereof)—especially to the degree that whatever their thesis was in however many years ago may have next t…

Yeah certainly, and even at university most lecturers I had I think were 'just call me (first name)'.

I just meant that I can't think of anything else at that level that we don't use (sometimes/to the same not-100% extent) an honourific for. In many countries (not North America I know) medicine is a lesser qualification (Bachelor of each Medicine & Surgery, MBBS or BMBS) but we still use it, so it seemed to me the argument up thread works there (Masters aren't called doctors) but not as far as I can think of anything at PhD level?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#450

Post by Minor49er »

pmontra wrote: post #110
jzwinck wrote: post #50

I lived in Asia for many years and worked with people from many places there. It's common to hear "How should I address you?" This is equivalent to the people here suggesting a "nickname" field (good idea). There are people with only one name. Don't make them double it (Ananda Ananda). There are people with several given names. But they may only want to be called by the first, or the first two, or the last. There are…

Imagine if the name on a tomb does not match the one that the person preferred to be called with, and everybody used all the times. I know one case but I don't know the reason.

Loved ones sometimes pay to have nicknames engraved on tombstones. I think those things are often left off unless the nickname had strong significance to the closest friends and family members of the deceased
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