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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#451

Post by bluGill »

matsemann wrote: post #116
0xy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're unlikely to succeed because if the massive tax on poor people (ICE bans) actually gets implemented, all of the poor people who are forced to buy an unaffordable EV will vote for populists promising to unwind the bans.

In much of the world, owning a car at all puts you above "poor people". While owning a car is sadly needed in some parts of the world to get to work or even the stores (US..), it's a massive financial burden for most people. If you care for poor people, thinking about how people can go about their daily lives without spending thousands of dollars each year on owning a car would be the way to go.

If you can afford a car you are not poor. In the US (and Europe) there are almost no poor people. What we call poor are still middle class by world standards.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#452

Post by naasking »

vivegi wrote: post #412
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement? Earth's Lithium deposits.................. 88,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] @25% Viable for mining.................... 22,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] Tesla S battery weight.................... 540 Kilograms per car [4] Lithium weight per Tesla S battery........ 63 Kilograms per battery [4] Max Tesla…

> I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement?

Even if they couldn't, why would you limit your analysis to Li-based batteries? It's basic economics that when a resource becomes rarer, it becomes more costly and alternatives spring up. EVs with Sodium batteries are already on the market in China. This whole Lithium fear mongering is such a red herring.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#453

Post by bluGill »

j16sdiz wrote: post #119
nicoburns wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re only banning sales of new EVs in the short term, and poor people don’t buy new cars anyway. By the time they are buying EVs, they’ll be much cheaper.

I doubt this. The manufacturer are pushing subscription-base model. Used electric car won't become cheap

I doubt that. They are trying the subscription model, but used car drivers are more price sensitive and are likely to not fall for it. If the car doesn't have a lifetime subscription included used car drivers will soon get the word out don't buy that car. Car manufactures depend on their cars having a good resale value - people who buy new cars tend to trade them in every 3 years, and that only works out because the car has value to someone else.

It will take time for this to work out in the market. BMW is small enough to trick people, but the large car makers are not.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#454

Post by jwilk »

supernova87a wrote: post #396
the_third_wave wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to whether those hybrids have a 'huge effect' on 'global warming' depends on many factors but assuming the narrative around climate change - the term 'global warming' has been swapped for the latter since the average global temperature has gone down for a number of years after an earlier steady rise - in relation to the CO₂ hypothesis holds truth the main factor of importance is the source of the carbon used in th…

by the way, how did you do all those subscript formatting tricks?? It would be great to know how to post more advanced things in the comments here.

You may like this:

https://jwilk.github.io/chemiscripts/

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#455

Post by bluGill »

thecopy wrote: post #108
0xy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're unlikely to succeed because if the massive tax on poor people (ICE bans) actually gets implemented, all of the poor people who are forced to buy an unaffordable EV will vote for populists promising to unwind the bans.

This might be true in USA where society have built itself to be almost fully dependent on cars. As a non-american: I have not owned a car in 10 years. You are not forced to have to own a car by some force of nature.

You don't state where you live, but odds are good your country is mostly car dependent. Sure transit is useful for a few (10%) of people who live in the city, but if you look at the numbers in almost every country cars are the vast majority of transport if the country is rich enough to afford them. If the country isn't that rich you will see other things, but as they become richer they become car dependent.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#456

Post by vivegi »

naasking wrote: post #452
vivegi wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement? Earth's Lithium deposits.................. 88,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] @25% Viable for mining.................... 22,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] Tesla S battery weight.................... 540 Kilograms per car [4] Lithium weight per Tesla S battery........ 63 Kilograms per battery [4] Max Tesla…

> I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement? Even if they couldn't, why would you limit your analysis to Li-based batteries? It's basic economics that when a resource becomes rarer, it becomes more costly and alternatives spring up. EVs with Sodium batteries are already on the market in China. This whole Lithium fear mongering is such a red herri…

I agree it cannot be dependent only on Li. That is why I had stated in the last line of my post

> Solutions possibly lie in exploring other battery chemistries while improving the efficiency of Li extraction.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#457

Post by DennisP »

nixass wrote: post #96
Akronymus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not have a choice in the matter as more and more countries are thinking of/implementing ICE bans in the near future.

No, not for another ~15 years and then I'll still be able to buy ICE car. EVs in current state are not so good and what's even worse new ICE cars are becoming shittier and shittier because of restrictions imposing on them

> EVs in current state are not so good

Well then, good thing the world's largest battery maker is starting to mass-produce batteries with twice the energy density.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#458

Post by tjmc »

jansan wrote: post #34
pcurve wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Also... kerosene gets spent. Pilots can also dump fuel in emergency when it's too heavy to land. Battery powered planes can't dump electricity, so I'd imagine some trade offs that have to be made.

That is a very good and often overlooked point. So in average on a flight one has to calculate maybe with 60% weight of kerosene, while the battery keeps 100% of its weight during the entire flight.

It gets worse with lithium air batteries that actually gain weight as they discharge because of the formation of solid oxides from the air. Argonne are reporting 1200Wh/kg in the lab though so still worth it.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#459

Post by bluGill »

zirgs wrote: post #313
rob74 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! I mean, we saw the same with computing: the first PCs cost thousands of dollars, but by the start of the nineties they were much more affordable already. Mostly because of technology advances and mass production, but of course also because of moving chip/board production to cheaper countries. Same with mobile phones, smartphones, laptops etc. etc.

PCs still cost thousands of dollars. If you are interested in AI/machine learning then $2k is the bare minimum.

People interested in AI/machine learning are a small niche. Your AI/machine learning computer is about as interesting to most people as large agriculture sprayer is to your average car buyer.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#460

Post by dahfizz »

steveBK123 wrote: post #444
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

Relative efficiencies also explain why city/highway efficiency is inverted between EV & ICE. Gasoline is rather energy dense, but the ICE is rather wasteful. There is a certain base load of energy being generated by an ICE engine, regardless of if you are moving or how slow you go. This is why carmakers experimented with things like rapid stop/start engines, regen batteries&motors, etc. ICE becomes more efficient as…

Meh, the only reason EVs are more efficient in the city is because of regen braking.

An ICE car traveling at a constant 30mph is going to get much better fuel economy than an ICE car traveling at a constant 75mph. The difference is that <=30mph roads usually have a lot of stop-and-go.

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