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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#411

Post by onion2k »

lil_cain wrote: post #332
xnorswap wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We only switched to selling by the litre in the early 90s (presumably for the sake of EU alignment), it was sold in Gallons until then. Expressing efficiency in MPG is just something that had "stuck" by then.

UK was legally obliged to by the EU. See the "metric martyrs" for how weirdly controversial this all was.

Not quite. The EU directive said that governments should if they wanted pass a law to say metric units should be displayed. The UK government chose to ratify that law, but with the caveat that imperial units could be displayed as well if shops wanted to display them (and most did).

At no point was it ever illegal do display the old units. There were no martyrs; there were only idiots.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#412

Post by vivegi »

msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement?

Earth's Lithium deposits.................. 88,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3]

@25% Viable for mining.................... 22,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3]

Tesla S battery weight.................... 540 Kilograms per car [4]

Lithium weight per Tesla S battery........ 63 Kilograms per battery [4]

Max Tesla S (global) production possible.. 349,206,349 units (See Edit below)

Number of automobiles running in the USA.. 102,000,000 units [1]

Number of automobiles running in the World 1,500,000,000 units [5]

So, even if we theoretically assume that the earth's entire known Li reserves are used for EV usage, we cannot replace more than 25% of the currently running cars in the world.

So, we have a bigger problem ahead of us (over the next decade) that will act as an opposing force against EV penetration and replacement of the IC engine.

Solutions possibly lie in exploring other battery chemistries while improving the efficiency of Li extraction.

Edit: As some of the comments below point out, the Li content in a Tesla Model S battery is approx. 63 Kg. That makes the Max Tesla S (production) possible to 349 million units. So, in theory, one could replace all IC engines in automobiles plying in the USA. That then leaves the rest of the world. So, the problem still remains.

[1]: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2021/m...

[2]: https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42417327/li...

[3]: https://www.usgs.gov/centers/national-minerals-information-c...

[4]: https://blog.evbox.com/ev-battery-weight

[5]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/the-number-of-cars-wo...

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#413

Post by moremetadata »

frankfrankfrank wrote: post #348
Aromasin wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK also does for some God awful reason (especially infuriating considering it's sold by the litre at the petrol station). In the United States and some other countries, a gallon is equal to 128 fluid ounces or 3.785 liters. Meanwhile, in the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth countries, a gallon is equal to 160 fluid ounces or 4.546 liters.

Yes, diversity must be stamped out for out corporate masters. All of humanity must be uniform and there can be no divergence.

[dead]

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#414

Post by [deleted] »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #405
thfuran wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EROI values for our most important fuels, liquid and gaseous petroleum, tend to be relatively high. World oil and gas has a mean EROI of about 20:1 (n of 36 from 4 publications) (Fig. 2) (see Lambert et al., 2012 and Dale, 2010 for references). The EROI for the production of oil and gas globally by publicly traded companies has declined from 30:1 in 1995 to about 18:1 in 2006 (Gagnon et al., 2009). The EROI for disc…

So the major difference between your numbers and the ones I cited, is that EROI is just "energy in versus energy out" and it does not change favorably if you do carbon capture or use renewables or whatnot. Whereas if you compare CO2 emissions, you can do these things and in theory get down to zero emissions from production and refining of gasoline.

[deleted]

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#415

Post by codethief »

msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

> 31mpg

mpg = miles per gallon

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#416

Post by tryptophan »

vivegi wrote: post #412
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement? Earth's Lithium deposits.................. 88,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] @25% Viable for mining.................... 22,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] Tesla S battery weight.................... 540 Kilograms per car [4] Lithium weight per Tesla S battery........ 63 Kilograms per battery [4] Max Tesla…

Known Earth's Lithium deposits =/= Earth's Lithium Deposits

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#417

Post by hn8305823 »

svnt wrote: post #331
leoedin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big reason for this is thermodynamics. A conventional internal combustion engine car has to convert chemical energy to kinetic energy - the absolute best theoretical efficiency of this might be 70%, but in practice it's more like 30%. Electric cars have to pay the same thermodynamic penalty, but they pay it at the power station (In practice, thanks to renewables, not all the electricity used to charge a car will…

It is a sign of the success of the oil industry that this analysis always takes the cost of electricity generation back to the source, but assumes that fuel stations pump from a perfect source of naturally refined/distilled hydrocarbons. It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. The best I found was this: https://www.speakev.com/threads/energy-required-t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#418

Post by rdez6173 »

walrus01 wrote: post #254
gibolt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current mass produced batteries, which tend to hover around 260-300 Wh/kg. Higher density (but still under 500) are available, but in far smaller quantities for a very high cost. The exciting part of this announcement is that if anyone can scale manufacturing, it is them.

What battery pack that I can buy right now is 300Wh/kg? Sincerely curious because that's 50Wh/kg above what people are using in some very expensive UAVs.

Amprius has 400+Wh/kg that are commercially available. I'm sure they ain't cheap, but the tech exists.

https://amprius.com/products/

Edit: well, I'm a dummy and OP said mass-produced. Sorry.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#419

Post by mjgant »

vivegi wrote: post #412
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

I have a fundamental question though. Will EVs (Li battery based) achieve the holy grail of IC engine replacement? Earth's Lithium deposits.................. 88,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] @25% Viable for mining.................... 22,000,000,000 Kilograms [2], [3] Tesla S battery weight.................... 540 Kilograms per car [4] Lithium weight per Tesla S battery........ 63 Kilograms per battery [4] Max Tesla…

Is 540KG per car just Lithium?

A quick google returned this ~63KG

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla....

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#420

Post by jackmott42 »

cfiggers wrote: post #403
svnt wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a sign of the success of the oil industry that this analysis always takes the cost of electricity generation back to the source, but assumes that fuel stations pump from a perfect source of naturally refined/distilled hydrocarbons. It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. The best I found was this: https://www.speakev.com/threads/energy-required-t…

> It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. Damn, I've never thought about that before. In hindsight that feels like an obvious thing to consider but this is the first time I'm aware of that thought entering my brain. Thank you for provoking the thought. What would be the equivalent consideration on the other side? Would it be something like inquiring in…

Yes, people usually call this "Full lifecycle analysis". It takes about as much electricity (or energy) to refine a tank of gas as to charge an EV, so there isn't necessarily an increase in load on the grid by electrifying transport. However some energy generation used by refineries that isn't electricity from the grid would have to get re-arranged.

Anyway maintaining a more robust grid should be much cheaper than maintaining thousands of gas stations and the trucking routes used to keep them filled up.

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