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The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#451
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local pe…

> Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local peers This is so out of touch. You might as well be using the "It's the video games!" excuse of yore. Teenagers and those in their 20s see what their parents were able to do. They hear what their parents bought their house for, they know about their pensions, they see that their parents could afford ra…

You aren’t wrong for people in their 20s but I don’t think 13 year olds are self harming because they are concerned about mortgages.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#452
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rate of hospitalization seems like the sort of thing that would be affected by if society frowns upon getting help or not.

Indeed, but in the opposite direction. Either that or the sort of help that's provided to teens with mental health issues today is somehow causing them to be more likely to self-harm etc., though presumably that would show up in the data if true.

Hmm. I suppose some people who might benefit from being hospitalized were instead hiding their self harm, although i would assume then that suicides would be way down.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#453
People should really read Jonathan Haidt's full series of posts. This one is post # 8 out of N, and they are meant to be read in series. The author's arguments build on each other, and all of the criticisms people are making in the comments are addressed in prior posts.

Full series here: https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/archive

I find the complete argument really compelling. It convincingly argues that teen use of social media has drastically reduced the time spent in person with friends, and drastically increased social comparisons. These two effects are awful for the mental health of a human who's brain is still developing. The specific issue is the combination of smartphones with cameras and social media based on images and video, which only became prevalent in ~2012. Social media is causing a public health the scale of COVID, Opiods, or smoking - a tremendous amount of unnecessary suffering, and 2-3x the rate of teen self harm and suicide.

Here's the longer version of the argument, with citations:

Teen mental health has unambiguously dropped off a cliff. Both self reports of depression, and objective measures like hospital admissions and suicides, have increased drastically since ~2012 [1].

The decrease in health does not correlate with the economy [2], or with academic pressure [3]. It does not correlate with 9/11, school shootings, or any particular American issue, because the decline started at the same time in all Anglophile countries [4].

There is no evidence of the "doomer" hypothesis: that teens are right to be more depressed because the world actually does suck, and they're just the first to notice [5]. And that thought pattern is itself specifically characteristic of depression: Depressed people view the world as worse than it actually is [6].

The decline in mental health does unambiguously correlate with social media use. And every class of study that examines causation has shown that social media causes declines in mental heatlh. The issue seems to be specifically the combination of smartphones with cameras and social media based on images and videos. These two technologies both became common ~2012, at the same time mental health started dropping [7].

Some combination of social media has radically altered the social life of teens, in ways that we know to be terrible for mental health. Time spent by teens in person with friends has decreased ~70% [8]. And I don't have a specific source for this one, but it sure seems like social media has vastly increased social comparison. Nothing else can explain the decline in time spent with friends. We know depression and anxiety are tightly linked to social support - how could time spent with friends fall by so much and not cause a crisis.

I think tech-savvy people are so used to baseless moral panics that there is a set of defense instincts kick in whenever something seems like a moral panic. But all of the evidence is that this time is different. If you don't think social media is a major contributor, at least understand the evidence that it is, or use evidence for your alternative hypothesis.

[1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-teen-mental-illness...

[2] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/conclusion-so...

[3] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/academic-pressure-socia...

[4] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/international-mental-il...

[5] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/mental-health-liberal-g...

The same point is made better and I think less ideologically by Matt Yglesias in the link before. Half of the piece is behind a paywall, but the first half is the most important.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/why-are-young-liberals-so-depre...

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck's_cognitive_triad

[7] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...

[8] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-new-cdc-report

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#454

(Seemingly) Inevitable climate change and ecological destruction, growing income inequality and falling standards of living, a deathly pandemic that's still killing people while we pretend everything is back to normal (+ long covid probably bringing about a disability crisis in 3-5 years), increasing tensions between various nuclear-capable states (Russia, China) and the West, changes in the age distribution in most…

> less and less of a future Everything is relative. My grandfather's biggest dream was to live in a city, that's it. Now young people dream (and envy) of way more. So I'd say there's more and more future for youth. They can afford, at least once in one's life: travel abroad, snow skiing, parachuting, going to a restaurant. It's just baseline jumped.

Relatively speaking...

Cultural optimism is likely to follow periods of growth and abundance, like buying a property in the 1970s for $5K and selling it in the 2000s for $2M. The last couple of decades have seen a reversal of this effect, so I don't think it's unreasonable that more people are feeling pessimistic about the future and their place in it.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#455
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> 95% of HN is comprised of people that work in the same or similarly biased companies You don't know that and I don't believe it's true. Your example is cherry-picked. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34625001 is by the same author on the same topic and spent 12 hours on HN's front page.

[flagged]

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#456
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if this aligns with what the GP was trying to say, but this is also one of the groups I would expect to be the most depressed, although I would expect white, middle-aged, middle-classed women to be an even larger demographic. Chemicals/genetics have a lot to do with depression, but for other cases I think depression comes from a feeling of uselessness/lack of purpose. White liberal women have a lot of incomp…

I could see this being a major factor. It reminds me of wealthy white women's "hysteria" / other mental health issues of the past (ex. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-o... ). Being neither particularly oppressed nor in the most priveleged group is an interesting position, and I could see this being an important mental health factor. I don't have a strong enough sociological background to co…

I read a theory that this is sort of the roots of the current anti-trans movement out of England - affluent but otherwise politically irrelevant women posting in mothers&parenting forums kind of latched on to this cause of defending their brand feminism from the existential threat of transfolk.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> A significant part of the trans movement is a reactionary reinforcement of rigid gender roles This is an anti-trans talking point and not remotely representative of actual trans communities. Source: am trans and nonbinary, and I have never heard another trans person complain about me not fitting into specific gender roles. The only people who complain are cis people who think my gender or lack thereof is either a r…

> I have never heard another trans person complain about me not fitting into specific gender roles

That is a straw-man of my position. A large part of the trans community believes hormone blockers should be liberally administered to teenagers and children, for example. That is by definition an attempt to steer healthy biological development into pre-established expectations of body conformity. The entire "transwomen are women" mantra is a vehement call for binarity: transwomen can't simply be transwomen, i.e. free people living their lives how they see fit, they must be externally recognized and validated as this social defined thing called a woman, which they were born into.

So while, of course, a community member would never comment or object to another's degree of conformity, popular variants of trangederism exhibit a strong conceptual agreement that gender objectively exists, as opposed to being an entirely made up thing used to pigeonhole people into social roles according to their biology.

This is in perfect opposition to traditional feminism, which seeks to dismantle oppressive gendered institutions. And in fact, in perfect opposition with the liberal tradition that pursues individual sovereignty and de-marginalization; just imagine using the same discourse of "being born in the wrong body" and "getting the treatment they need" for any other social class that is discriminated against for minor biological variance, such as skin color, height or weight.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. Sorry, I don't get fulfillment from a job, nor do I base my personality on it. A job is a thing that I have to do to live and do some stuff I like. That's it, nothing more. I'd never do actual work unless I had to, and I'd never work full time if I didn't have to. I'm never going to be motivated to work harder for a fancy car if I can have a re…

> playing games I long ago lost all interest in playing games. The problem with them is nothing is accomplished. Play pinball and get a number on the display. Play Doom and - nothing. Although I invented the Empire game, most of my pleasure in it was developing it.

> Although I invented the Empire game, most of my pleasure in it was developing it.

Seems normal enough to me. I found a plateau in playing games, so switched to modding and making them, even as a teen. Everyone has different thresholds and can find joy wherever it suits them.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I was working 10h/w during high school, I was also making DOOM wads and learning BSP algo in my extremely ample free time. I don't recall having what I would call "ample" spare time in high school. I recall being at school 8:30 to 4 every day, then a few hours of homework daily and/or exam prep for the endless exams ("don't fail" they said, "or you'll never go to university and your life is ruined forever!").…

When did you go to highschool? I think homework overload could be part of the problem. When I went to highschool in the Aughts, UC tracked students rarely had homework, maybe 30 min a day, and school got out at 2:15. If you had a good job, you could get 1 or 2 hours of school credit instead. Young family members I know now talk about several hours of work per day. I certainly wouldn't be happy with that

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Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international – Part 1: The Anglosphere

#460
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much easier to engage with ten articles of varying quality and varying levels of disagreement than with a podcast. >The Miseducation of Free Speech Does not focus on Haidt. >College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes Does not focus on Haidt. >The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis "This is not one of those laudatory reviews. Although I agree with many things they w…

The Amy Waxman point was explicitly used by The Coddling Of The American Mind to prove its point, while the book completely ignored the context that Amy Waxman was racist, which is why it's referenced here. It's clear you haven't even read the book you're trying to defend here, so why are you doing this? Edited to add: A gish-gallop? I'm just linking a set of references that the podcast uses because of the critique t…

Excited to go through the links to see Haidt deflated only to walk away thoroughly disappointed...
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