Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#451

Post by danans » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

ruchir wrote: post #415

danans wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary materials in batteries, mostly metals, do not degrade like plastic. Metals are extensively recycled today, unlike plastic. Furthermore, each battery cell has a potential lifetime after EV usage as part of a stationary storage system, before any recycling.

https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re... "But very little recycling goes on today. In Australia, for example, only 2–3% of Li-ion batteries are collected and sent offshore for recycling, according to Naomi J. Boxall, an environmental scientist at Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO). The recycling rates in the European Union and the US—less than 5%—ar…

> only 2–3% of Li-ion batteries are collected and sent offshore for recycling,

> Until and unless this recycling rate is provably 50% or higher at the time of an EV sale, you should not diss on a 50% loss of efficiency in electrolysis for an FCEV

Most lithium ion batteries are still not used in car batteries but rather in phones, computers, cameras, power tools, and other personal electronics. Should we be running those on hydrogen instead?

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#452

Post by panick21_ » Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 7:54 PM UTC

moloch-hai wrote: post #441

panick21_ wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France fleet is not obsolete. They can survive for another 40 year easy. Sadly the French 2nd generation pissed away all the great work the first generation did and neglected the fleet they had. They are treating the fleet lie the giving tree. Ironically because the French were so blessed with so many reactors, they were one of the few nations that didn't use their reactors very well. The Germans were actually better…

Yet, in just a few years all the French reactors will be mothballed because they cost several times as much to operate as buying off the grid.

Except that will not happen and no French govenrment will be so fucking stupid.

Nuclear is providing cheap long term stable power supply and if they stop forcing their nuclear fleet to support solar and fossil (literally things the French government forced them to do) and do proper maintenance French will have cheap carbon free energy for the next 50+ years.

Funny how nuclear is so expensive and yet somehow people in France and places that nuclear reactors have mostly cheap power while Germany is spending absurd money prevent their population from feeling an even worse hurt from the policy they have inflicted on them.

In total the Germany population over the 50 years has paid way more for energy and getting way worse outcomes. That's a simple fact.

Just the cost for the measure Germany has to take now to buffer from this whole Russia fuckup would have been enough to pay for a whole fleet of nuclear reactors for Germany. Instead they are gone spend another 15+ years using coal and gas and then have to manage an incredibly unstable complex grid while having to replace all those wind plants they put up in the next 20-30 years.

And the French reactors will still be running and still provide stable carbon free power for a low price.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#453

Post by Schroedingersat » Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 4:59 AM UTC

panick21_ wrote: post #452

moloch-hai wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, in just a few years all the French reactors will be mothballed because they cost several times as much to operate as buying off the grid.

Except that will not happen and no French govenrment will be so fucking stupid. Nuclear is providing cheap long term stable power supply and if they stop forcing their nuclear fleet to support solar and fossil (literally things the French government forced them to do) and do proper maintenance French will have cheap carbon free energy for the next 50+ years. Funny how nuclear is so expensive and yet somehow people in…

I love how it's simultaneously cheap, but selling a small portion of the energy for the price they claim it costs is a completely unfair burden that is "supporting solar and fossil".

"It can be cheap! All you need is free loans, a liability cap less than the cost of one reactor, money from the military, exemption from any democratic process as to where they go, underfunding decomissioning, cheaping out on materials, never doing maintenance, charging more than the claimed cost, operating at a massive loss, creating a debt you foist on the public, build up billions of unpaid maintenance costs, and then not selling it for cheap! Oh, and you still need to overprovision and build backup."

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#454

Post by slackfan » Sun, Jan 29, 2023, 12:42 PM UTC

rgmerk wrote: post #432

slackfan wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, there is an argument to be made for Hydrogen-fueled IC engines. Massive investment in nuclear does not solve the issue with lithium required for batteries (nevermind the environmental impact of such). I seem to recall Mazda doing a thing around their RX-8 with dual-fueling, but that went nowhere a decade and a half ago. But hey, why go for a significantly cheaper from a cap-ex perspective option where r…

Yeah, in theory you can run existing vehicles off hydrogen, but hydrogen internal combustion engines have, thus far, sucked. BMW tried this with a hydrogen-fuelled 7 series V12 back in the mid 2000s. They could only get about 150 horsepower out of that massive V12. They got well over 400 out of the original gasoline version of the engine. As for lithium, I’m old enough to remember when many were convinced Peak Oil wa…

Mazda got about 80% power in their rotaries, so they got a ~110-120 hp out of their 160-180hp rotaries. Seems like a BMW problem.