How Basecamp Blew Up • Hacker News Board

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#451

Post by SvenMarquardt » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #406

didgeoridoo wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

Dehumanization is a key element in tolerating mistreatment of others. Inflicting atrocities carries a psychological toll that can be lessened if the victims are seen as less deserving of compassion. Name calling is an early step in this process.

Which is why it is imperative society push back against the vilification of any race, including whites.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#452

Post by NDizzle » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #360

thrownaway564 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

> husband Yup. Pro tip: If you're at a SV-influenced company and you find yourself talking about your personal life, don't say "husband," "wife," "boyfriend," or "girlfriend;" say "partner." That signals that you're an Ally rather than an Enemy. You'll notice other weird speech patterns too. Pay attention to them; they're meaningful.

Sorry to be so blunt, but fuck that. Fuck that, man. Fuck. That.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#453

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

Tainnor wrote: post #124

Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I would maybe be more sympathetic to DHH if it wasn't the guy who was so opinionated he pushed through Rails features that everyone else disliked or co-wrote several books on company culture that are glorified ads for basecamp (although "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" is still a thought-provoking read, at least in part). I can only imagine that he might b…

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#454

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#455

Post by anm89 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

throthro111 wrote: post #160

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

He very clearly did not say "white supremecy does not exist". He said it didn't exist at the company. Those two things are very different.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#456

Post by etchalon » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #397

mumblemumble wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, you exhibit the kind of people skills that should be a baseline qualification for a senior leader. You don't draw lines in the sand, you don't internally frame this as an them-vs-me thing, you certainly don't try to give your staff condescending mini-lectures about basic topics in social criticism such as how framing works. Brinksmanship isn't going to lead anywhere good, and someone has to take the fi…

How do you avoid being framed as “us vs. them” when you are being openly called a white supremacist? What you’re describing is “appeasement.” Presume they’re operating in good faith and that maybe they’re kind of right. So you cut a compromise, and sure enough, the white supremacy is still there! And what do they recommend? More appeasement. I agree it was a management problem, but the problem is it wasn’t identified…

No one was calling anyone a white supremecist in the conversation. They were likely talking about white supremacy as a cultural and political force in the context of how the policy could perpetrate it.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#457

Post by duxup » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

I'm not sure any company could survive unscathed from everyone at an all hands meeting addressing topics like:

"we live in a white supremacist culture"

Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#458

Post by freewilly1040 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #83

In the April discussion about the list of customer names, Singer posted to say that attempting to link the list to genocide was “absurd.” On the Friday call, he went further. “I strongly disagree we live in a white supremacist culture,” Singer said. “I don't believe in a lot of the framing around implicit bias. I think a lot of this is actually racist.” He continued: “Very often, if you express a dissenting view, you…

Singer is an executive in a c suite that has courted publicity, seems fair to name him.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#459

Post by brightball » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #409

arp242 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers. I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good…

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

What is the difference?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#460

Post by bhupy » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

sagichmal wrote: post #438

bhupy wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And conversely, you don’t get to assume that others understand you when you use language in ways that aren’t colloquial. Shared definitions is the bedrock of human communication, and absent that, we’re no better than chimps just grunting past each other.

> And conversely, you don’t get to assume that others understand you when you use language in ways that aren’t colloquial. Yep! It was a failure of all parties involved that the two competing definitions of racism weren't laid out on the table, when people started getting huffy. > Shared definitions is the bedrock of human communication, and absent that, we’re no better than chimps just grunting past each other. (lau…

It sounds like we agree!

I will say that from the transcripts (and from the way conversations have been going in this thread), the way this usually starts is that one party unilaterally sets the rules of engagement and more or less demands that others accept those terms, and when the others push back on those rules, we all take a step back and admit “failure of all parties”.

It would be a lot easier for us to collaborate on these problems if we can be honest with ourselves about who the aggressor is, and who’s caught on the defense in these kinds of heated exchanges in workplace debates.