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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#451

Post by franga2000 »

Bakary wrote: post #401
franga2000 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if what you're talking about is French secularism, but I definitely agree with it up until the "mental illness" part. That part is where things become dangerous. Sure, churches and religions aren't special and they should follow the exact same rules as any other group of people and/or legal entity. But the moment you start mandating how people should think/what they should believe, even if their beliefs are…

In his defense, religious belief has a history of sliding down that slope at full speed in most cases when left to its own devices. I feel that religious extremism is often treated much less harshly than secularist abuses. One example of that is how various Western countries reacted to that French teacher being beheaded: they were more immediately concerned with discrimination than with the actual murder and its impl…

Definitely, but if you start treating religion as a mental illness like OP suggested, you ought to also consider flat earthers and conspiracy theorists the same. And what is the line between a conspiracy theory in the usual sense and simply a yet-unproven theory that a conspiracy actually exists? That the government is spying on us all the time might've sounded like a conspiracy theory before Snowden, so should all the people who believed it have been committed to mental hospitals? Obviously this is a slippery slope argument in and of itself, but it illustrates the possibilities for abuse.

But yes, religion seems to be a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card these days - people and organizations get away with a lot of shady stuff under the disguise of religion and something really needs to be done about it.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#452

Post by franga2000 »

wreckagedemon wrote: post #406
franga2000 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, not being able to use Google or Apple products would be such a hit to the modern way of life that people might become less complacent. To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in, but it makes sense that people would be more likely to stand up to tyranny when something very important to them is swiftly taken away. Even the simple act of taking a stance against these…

"To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in" Perhaps you should blame the people, if by the people you mean the Pakistani populace. I say this as a Pakistani. The issue of discrimination towards Ahmedis is something that has widespread support among the populace. From uneducated masses to university professors, poor to rich. Very few people actually oppose the discriminatio…

Honestly, I don't know the first thing about the situation over there, so I wanted to make sure it didn't sound like I was blaming the oppressed people for being opressed and not fighting for their freedom hard enough.

But if there are indeed large parts of the population that supoort this kind of oppression, then that might actually support the argument for not doing business with them. In that case, not only do you anger the victims to revolt, but also maybe force the oppressors to reconsider if oppressing whatever group of people is worth losing access to so much of modern technology over.

Of course, the possibility is that the oppressors just lash out and make things worse for the victims, or find other ways of hurting them, but despite that possibility, I'd still argue it's more moral for G&A to refuse their demands and leave the country if they have to.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#453

Post by Bakary »

franga2000 wrote: post #451
Bakary wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In his defense, religious belief has a history of sliding down that slope at full speed in most cases when left to its own devices. I feel that religious extremism is often treated much less harshly than secularist abuses. One example of that is how various Western countries reacted to that French teacher being beheaded: they were more immediately concerned with discrimination than with the actual murder and its impl…

Definitely, but if you start treating religion as a mental illness like OP suggested, you ought to also consider flat earthers and conspiracy theorists the same. And what is the line between a conspiracy theory in the usual sense and simply a yet-unproven theory that a conspiracy actually exists? That the government is spying on us all the time might've sounded like a conspiracy theory before Snowden, so should all t…

It's a bit circular because mental illness is societally determined. If enough people deem something to be an illness or no longer one, then so it shall tautologically be.

>But yes, religion seems to be a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card these days - people and organizations get away with a lot of shady stuff under the disguise of religion and something really needs to be done about it.

Well that was my point: secularist impulses are often rejected, especially in the anglosphere. The people who could do something are often prevented from doing so, while religious orders are free to leave broken lives in their wake.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#454

Post by baybal2 »

selimthegrim wrote: post #175
baybal2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say I always found it strange how Ahmadis are universally persecuted in Pak, but a dozen way more funnier sects thrive. You constantly see some weird pirs, and "faith healers" on TV in Pakistan.

Are there still those wall chalkings for "aamil Junaid Bengali" all over Karachi? Edit: I guess not - https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-yea...

There are few dozens of Junaid Bengalis at any given time. Last time been in the country in 2017, and some weird molana promising salvation for 5 lakh rupee was holding a rally in Islamabad right at the time I arrived.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#455

Post by webmobdev »

quetzthecoatl wrote: post #439
webmobdev wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…

India is not secular, and whatever goes on in India in the name of secularism is the exact opposite of it. Rights are sanctioned and denied based on religious identity. In case you want to know how bad it is, the ones the most oppressed and poor are the lower caste hindus, and even now, it's illegal for a lower caste hindu to open and run school exclusively for lower caste hindus even with his own money. It's not jus…

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#456

Post by toyg »

lrem wrote: post #377
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Google did exit the Chinese market though and its stock price has since under-performed the competitors that did not.

I really wish all of Google’s and alphabet’s problems were due to their occasional principled stance.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#457

Post by webmobdev »

quetzthecoatl wrote: post #439
webmobdev wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…

India is not secular, and whatever goes on in India in the name of secularism is the exact opposite of it. Rights are sanctioned and denied based on religious identity. In case you want to know how bad it is, the ones the most oppressed and poor are the lower caste hindus, and even now, it's illegal for a lower caste hindu to open and run school exclusively for lower caste hindus even with his own money. It's not jus…

[flagged]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#458

Post by selimthegrim »

nethunters wrote: post #448
selimthegrim wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Jinnah, Mirza Basheer said a lot of things at one time and a lot of diametrically opposite things at another. Punishing people who aren't dead for something someone who is dead said is a bad idea, so is predicating citizenship rights. Do you think I asked for who my parents were? Do you think it's fair they couldn't even register their marriage in Pak and could only give Nikahnama to American embassy on the way…

The point was aimed at the classification of Ahamdis as not being Muslim and how the founder and main leaders of the Ahmadiyya even seen their movement as radically different to mainstream Islam. I haven't seen any statements of them opposing these views. Regardless, I wasn't advocating or defending their persecution.

You might want to check out the 1974 assembly hearings where the successor of the guy you cited has a bit about “political Muslims”

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#459

Post by quetzthecoatl »

webmobdev wrote: post #457
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is not secular, and whatever goes on in India in the name of secularism is the exact opposite of it. Rights are sanctioned and denied based on religious identity. In case you want to know how bad it is, the ones the most oppressed and poor are the lower caste hindus, and even now, it's illegal for a lower caste hindu to open and run school exclusively for lower caste hindus even with his own money. It's not jus…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#460

Post by ryzvonusef »

I'm in pakistan and censorship here is... weird

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like... on reddit, govt of pakistan banned some subreddits... but there is some bizarre pattern and it's not clear exactly what is banned, leading to some hilarious discoveries,

it's not just all subs tagged "nsfw", coz some of them are accessible, strangely enough (thank goodness for the RES nsfw filter)

/r/trees is banned... but /r/marijuana is not, nor is /r/cocaine for that matter ;p

quite a few porn subs are banned, which is understandable... but also banned is, and I shit you not, /r/handholding

it's literally a sub about anime characters holding hands, I mean....

just checked, /r/exmuslim is accessible, and so are various ahmadiyya related subs, (for now atleast) so huh...

I remember when /r/mapporn got banned once upon a time, but that was lifted

----

same for websites, you are browsing and suddenly you are met with a "surf safely" warning, and there is no rhyme or reason, there is nothing in the URL or the website content that resembles anything bannable, but yeah, until some fuck updates the filter, we are stuck

----

still, I make sure to NEVER EVER EVR say anything that remotely even touches any controversial subject even obliquely, it's a death sentence for your entire extended family, and accusations fly all too freely

https://twitter.com/search?q=blasphemy%20(from%3ASAMRIReport...

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