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Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

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Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#451

Post by jonplackett »

fermienrico wrote: post #390
rabidrat wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman founded the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for this very reason. You might think it's ridiculous but the fight for the right to modify the software running on devices you own has been raging for 35 years and is bigger than ever.

I am fine with this for most things except my phone. I trust Apple more than any party in the world. Even the government. Fortnight devs, Epic, whatever are not even on the same radar. They'll sell your privacy in milliseconds if they can get 2.5 cents for it. I would never ever own an open source phone. Not because the operating system is open source (probably good that it has eyes on it) but there is no way to cont…

More than... yourself?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#452

Post by hu3 »

chillacy wrote: post #411
theshrike79 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens of Android manufacturers. If an Android phone breaks, people complain about the manufacturer or maybe the telco they bought the phone from. Apple is a singular target, unlike anything in the Android ecosystem.

That sounds plausible but I've never seen it happen. Maybe you could provide some examples to back up your claim?

Yeah that's my point. Never seen it happen. Surely can't be enough to justify the loss of freedom.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#453

Post by mantap »

threeseed wrote: post #419
amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

According to Apple: "Upon further review of the activity associated with your Apple Developer Program membership, we have identified several violations of the Apple Developer Program License Agreement" So it doesn't sound like it was just for this Fortnite issue.

That's what they want you to think. Which is why they say it. Sounds better than "Tim made the order to retaliate, sayonara"

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#454

Post by tobyhinloopen »

theshrike79 wrote: post #296
bob1029 wrote: post #291

Can someone give me compelling reasons for disallowing side-loading of applications on iOS? Hypothetically, if side-loading were to be allowed it could be buried under a configuration+confirmation flag for security reasons just like with Android or Windows 10. Thinking more abstractly about this, I already do "sideload" iOS applications when I sign them with enterprise/developer certs and perform OTA installs from sy…

A single human is smart, people are stupid. They’ll install ANYTHING, no matter how hard it is and how shady the site is. They can’t help themselves. Then their phone is rooted by a bad actor and spreading malware. Who do they blame? Themselves? The shady site? The creator of the trojan? Nope. Apple. They’ll shout from the rooftops how Apple ruined their life and business and remand restitution. The easiest and most…

People can “sideload” on mac os x and nobody is making a scene about their mistakes of mac os x being insecure.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#455

Post by untog »

floatingatoll wrote: post #373
amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

Epic expressly snuck code through the door to activate a user-visible feature in direct prohibition to App Store rules. Apple could have revoked their developer certificate in response, which would have essentially killed all installations of Fortnite iOS/Mac worldwide within 24 hours. That they are merely revoking their ability to sign new code and giving them 2 weeks to perform an orderly shutdown is far less draco…

> Notarization is about protecting users who are not capable of making an informed decision about code safety from developers who refuse to comply with Apple's terms of service. Epic willfully violated their terms with Apple to make a point, and Apple is responding in the same way that they did to Facebook: taking away their access to the users, because they cannot be trusted to comply with the restrictions placed on their behavior.

You're conflating two things here: code safety, and what Epic did. At no point did Epic do anything unsafe, nor did they put their users in any danger. They simple violated a business rule Apple enforces.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#456

Post by floatingatoll »

falcolas wrote: post #433
_qulr wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notarization is about protecting users who are not capable of making an informed decision about code safety from developers who refuse to comply with Apple's terms of service. No, notarization is about preventing malware. That's all. This has been promised to us by Apple many many times. Malware prevention only. Fortnite is not malware.

> Fortnite is not malware. Well, it kinda is, isn't it? > Programs are also considered malware if they secretly act against the interests of the computer user. Is convincing children that they need to spend money to not be a "default" really in the interest of a computer user? Is taking advantage of gambling addictions with lootboxes really in the interest of a computer user (or society at large)? I get what you real…

You're arguing that Fortnite is harmful to children and society due to its invocation of gambling reward techniques.

That's a fine argument to make, but it's nothing to do with what we're discussing here :)

If you wrote a blog post about how Apple and Google should ban gambling reward techniques from their app stores, I'd read it if you posted it to HN!

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#457

Post by jonplackett »

brundolf wrote: post #425
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pop-up box you get when you try to run unsigned applications gives the user absolutely no hint as to how they can jump through those hoops to run the thing. You need to know what to google for to find the right magic incantation to enter into the macOS terminal. On Windows, at least, the “Run anyway” button is merely behind the “More information...” link.

Right. I'm just saying, user-freedom is technically preserved. This is a huge inconvenience, and bad for Epic's business, but it's not a ban . As an owner of Mac hardware, I still have control over what I can do with my machine.

The point is though that they have the ability to 'ban' it for 99.99% of users who don't know that.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#458

Post by colinmhayes »

thrwn_frthr_awy wrote: post #35
jedberg wrote: post #3

It's fascinating to see the replies to the tweets. It appears most people don't care. They just want their game to work. A lesson in how your customers don't care about how your product is made.

That's right. Epic is trying to use it's user-base as pawns against Apple, but it isn't working. Is Epic planning on lowering the cost of games on iOS by 30% if the fee goes away? I don't believe they are. Edit: Thank you save_ferris for for correcting me. Here is the blog post announcing the discount. https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-fortnite-m...

It's legitimately difficult for me to comprehend anyone being on apple's side here. I'm not talking legally, I'm talking about which companies preferred outcome would be better for consumers. Epic being allowed to open their own app store would mean every app has 18% less fees. That is nothing but good for consumers. It's legitimately an improvement for everyone except apple.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#459

Post by brundolf »

jonplackett wrote: post #457
brundolf wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I'm just saying, user-freedom is technically preserved. This is a huge inconvenience, and bad for Epic's business, but it's not a ban . As an owner of Mac hardware, I still have control over what I can do with my machine.

The point is though that they have the ability to 'ban' it for 99.99% of users who don't know that.

This isn't a social app, it's a professional tool that multimillion-dollar businesses are built on (most of which have in-house engine programmers). They'll figure it out if they have to. Heck, Epic could publish instructions for doing so.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#460

Post by falcolas »

untog wrote: post #447
falcolas wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fortnite is not malware. Well, it kinda is, isn't it? > Programs are also considered malware if they secretly act against the interests of the computer user. Is convincing children that they need to spend money to not be a "default" really in the interest of a computer user? Is taking advantage of gambling addictions with lootboxes really in the interest of a computer user (or society at large)? I get what you real…

> Yet it's worth considering if Fortnight is really a good thing in the first place. IMO that's a fine conversation to have, but it is not Apple's place to make that decision for me.

It's worth remembering that this is due to Epic, not Apple. Epic broke the TOS (and then some), with the full knowledge that they would be removed from both major app stores.

Apple and Google are hardly faultless, but Epic is is the one who started this dick-measuring contest.

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