Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#321

Post by mcintyre1994 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

ArchOversight wrote: post #103

0x402DF854 wrote: post #23

From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

I'm not sure I see what you've quoted actually matches Epic's behaviour. They've certainly breached the agreement and failed to cure it, but it hasn't been 30 days. I don't think they've hidden functionality, the way their game engine works and lets games update without new review isn't secret. They haven't falsified reviews or committed payment fraud. The wording there is obviously super vague, you could argue what they did is "improper" in the same way you could argue literally anything is improper.

Can you be a bit more concrete? What exactly of what you quoted in section (f) do you think applies to Epic?

And actually on your first part, they broke the rules and their app is off the store. Is Apple’s usual policy that if you do that and you choose not to put the app back up in a compliant form within 30 days then you get permanently banned from developing for all their platforms?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#322

Post by TheCoelacanth » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

recursive wrote: post #227

Dahoon wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously hope you meant fortunately?

Why would it be fortunate to be compelled to do business with someone who's suing you?

Fortunate for those of us who don't wield monopoly power over a marketplace.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#323

Post by mvn9 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

danudey wrote: post #201

askl56 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/slasher/status/1295434558112960519?s=21 This may have consequences for Unreal Engine too. Without a dev account, how can they maintain it?

They can still build and test on-device, they just won't be able to publish anything to the app store. Specifically, in XCode, they can add an Apple ID (any Apple ID) and use that to build on a device.[1] This creates a "personal team"[2] which you can use to test on your devices. [1] https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/devaf282080a [2] https://help.apple.com/xcode/mac/current/#/dev17411c009

Why then all those monopoly-discussions? Cannot any program be 'side-loaded' by creating a personal team?

Or the other way round: What good would be a personal team for epic if they cannot test their games on actual phones?

If personal teams allow side-loading of apps, why isn't this a way to distribute apps? Why is there no app store for personal team apps?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#324

Post by ayoisaiah » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

ayoisaiah wrote: post #281

baddox wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I've seen commenting on this Epic vs. Apple debate seem to think that it's okay on game consoles but not okay on iPhones, which is just preposterous. At least you're consistent. But what about e-readers, GPS devices, car entertainment systems, etc.? Should all Turing-complete computing devices be forced to provide a way for the owner to run unsigned code?

The difference is that those other devices have a specific use. Smartphones are general purpose devices, so it's not the same at all

How does it imply that? Which of those devices you mentioned (e-readers, GPS devices, car entertainment systems) have a store for downloading apps? If they do, then yes I would like to be able to put whatever I want on there without the approval of some corporation.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#325

Post by theshrike79 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

hu3 wrote: post #308

theshrike79 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single human is smart, people are stupid. They’ll install ANYTHING, no matter how hard it is and how shady the site is. They can’t help themselves. Then their phone is rooted by a bad actor and spreading malware. Who do they blame? Themselves? The shady site? The creator of the trojan? Nope. Apple. They’ll shout from the rooftops how Apple ruined their life and business and remand restitution. The easiest and most…

That's hyperbole. People can sideload Android apps for a decade now and I have yet to see someone complain that sideloading did something bad let alone blame the OS for it. That is such a rare case that I have a hard time trying to justify the loss of freedom.

There are dozens of Android manufacturers. If an Android phone breaks, people complain about the manufacturer or maybe the telco they bought the phone from.

Apple is a singular target, unlike anything in the Android ecosystem.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#326

Post by misnome » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

ayoisaiah wrote: post #281

baddox wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I've seen commenting on this Epic vs. Apple debate seem to think that it's okay on game consoles but not okay on iPhones, which is just preposterous. At least you're consistent. But what about e-readers, GPS devices, car entertainment systems, etc.? Should all Turing-complete computing devices be forced to provide a way for the owner to run unsigned code?

The difference is that those other devices have a specific use. Smartphones are general purpose devices, so it's not the same at all

Isn't that specific use mostly artificial by restricting your ability to install things though?

If it's a CPU in a box, then it's purely a matter of what software you are allowed to install on it, right?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#327

Post by l3s2d » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #204

Animats wrote: post #149

Note that this applies to Mac systems, not just IOS. Apple is trying to prevent Unreal Engine from working on any Apple-controlled platform. So, if you're a gamer or a game developer, do not buy a Mac . Developers now using Macs need to be planning an exit strategy.

The engine is open source isn't it? They can't stop you from downloading the source and compiling it, right?

Source available, not open source.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#328

Post by mcintyre1994 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

quotha wrote: post #315

woofie11 wrote: post #2

This clearly and unambiguously crosses the line into abuse of market power. Apple's actions before? Maybe? Sort of? Apple needed that 30 percent cut to monitor for fraud and quality or something, going above-and-beyond other payment processors. This? This has absolutely no basis in anything. It's simple retaliation designed to kneecap Epic from Apple's dominant control of a market. Apple can refuse to let Epic releas…

So, Epic should get special treatment? They don't have to pay the fees? Just everyone else? How is apple supposed to run the app store? They kinda know what they are doing or why else would so many people buy their iphones?

Their app isn't on the store, so no they shouldn't pay fees beyond whatever Apple charge for the privelege of being a developer on their platform. Not sure why not paying App Store fees (because of not having an app on the store) would justify removing access to all developer accounts and tools.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#329

Post by grishka » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #295

grishka wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video game consoles are specialized hardware. They do one thing and they do it well. It's kind of understandable that these companies want to review anything released for those. They want to ensure that games are of high quality so as to not hurt the reputation of the platform itself. They want games to help sell consoles. And that's how video game consoles always worked. iPhones, on the other hand, are not specializ…

> They want to ensure that games are of high quality so as to not hurt the reputation of the platform itself. They want games to help sell consoles. And that's how video game consoles always worked. And my argument is that an overall better (according to each individual buyer's preference) software experience is a major (perhaps the single largest) differentiator of iPhones over competing smartphones. This has always…

> I don't see iPhone owners complaining about App Store rules

Well, as someone outside of US and its culture, I see every now and then how people dislike Apple enforcing its morals on apps. Example: even if your app is rated 18+ and contains UGC, you still can't have any porn in it. Even if it's censored by default but there's a setting to show it. They demand that you completely obliterate any content that is even slightly erotical, let alone overtly pornographic, or have your app banished from the app store.

And don't even get me started on "illegal file sharing".

I've seen this from both sides. As a user, you blame Apple for seeing a placeholder when trying to view a VK group that contains suggestive imagery in one of its photo albums. As a developer, you roll your eyes when your bug fix update gets rejected an umpteenth time with the reason being "we turned safe search off, typed 'porn' into the search box and naked people came up". It just feels like a dictatorship state, and a very prude one.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#330

Post by bryanlarsen » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #273

ayoisaiah wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Willing is not the right word. They generally have a greater means to do so.

Of course. My point is that this doesn't seem to be related to any anticompetitive behavior on Apple's part. If Apple was using market power to force smartphone competitors out of the market to increase Apple's own market share, that would be one thing. But to accuse Apple of anticompetitive behavior because their small smartphone market share spends more money on apps than other smartphone owners does not seem reaso…

Epic is not suing Apple because Apple used nefarious means to achieve dominance. You, I and Epic would probably all agree they earned that dominance fair and square.

But once you have dominance different rules apply.