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I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

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Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#451

Post by VikingCoder »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #368
sumedh wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is precisely when your values are on the "wrong side of History" that you should be defending them the most strongly. Not sure what you mean, people who supported slavery were on the wrong side of history, are you saying they should have defended it strongly because they were "right" according to them?

People who supported slavery were wrong because slavery is wrong. If the South had won the Civil War and conquered the North, they'd still be just as wrong, but opposition to slavery would be more important than ever. History itself justifies precisely nothing.

> History itself justifies precisely nothing.

We're not saying it does. We're saying that when you can tell right from wrong, but you make a selfish / pragmatic choice, that you will be on the wrong side of history. Because we're optimists. We think in the future, people will be better able to tell right from wrong.

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#452

Post by luckylion »

snarfy wrote: post #449
luckylion wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, which country is that? Germany requires proportionality, e.g. you obviously can't shoot people because they try to steal candy, but you can very much protect your car. I have zero objections to that. You will not get money from an insurance company if somebody robs you or breaks into your house to clean the place out. It's really not "what do you care, it's only money, a human life cannot be replaced…

It's the USA. Some states you can shoot trespassers. Others, like mine generally require a life threatening situation before deadly force is authorized.

That's quite the range though. If somebody breaks into your house and you have the ability to leave through the back door, would you be required to do so and would be charged if you didn't, a fight ensues and you kill the person? What if they walk out with your computer, can you try to stop them, knowing that it will escalate the situation to what is likely life-threatening?

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#453

Post by jimmaswell »

neves wrote: post #447
jimmaswell wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone who thinks noteworthy public statements shouldn't be removed is a bad person according to you?

This is just one more specific problem. FB is nocive for the world. If you stay there, you are an accomplice.

I find the complaints overblown myself. It seems like just a site people can see posts from other people on, which relies on standard adtech for funding, which I also don't consider evil. The big thing was CA which can't even be proven FB was complicit in.

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#454

Post by adpirz »

asdff wrote: post #437
adpirz wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove "stupid", and this is otherwise accurate.

When I slip down the rabbit hole every now and then and end up deep in a multi hour social media/internet binge when I could be doing something else entertaining as well as constructive, I am definitely being a stupid person.

"stupid people" = stupidity endemic to the people

"people acting stupidly" = people in temporary states of stupidity

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#455

Post by VikingCoder »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #179
VikingCoder wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you don't understand the phrase. Optimists believe that the future will be better, that people will be wiser. They believe that those future enlightened people will look back at some people and actions, and believe that they were on the wrong side of history. It's not a popularity contest. It's a belief that we get better over time by making moral actions. "It is precisely when your values are on the 'wrong s…

We have gathered here, by and large, to discuss and cheerlead a campaign which calls for political censorship of a major political figure, one who earned the vote of just under half of the USA. We assembled beg for a world in which a megacorporation will enact content restrictions, deciding what types of view are acceptable to express. The politician in question, far from offering a meaningful alternative that advanc…

Hi, you're bending the words "right side of history" beyond how anyone else uses them. So, don't be surprised if people have a hard time understanding you.

You have legitimate concerns, but your phrasing of them is not easy for anyone else to follow.

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#456

Post by zepto »

artsyca wrote: post #420
zepto wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last question seems like a personal attack which is against HN guidelines. I was responding to your claim that it was illegitimate to quit in protest, and that people should stay and change organizations from within. Given this belief, I assumed you might have some insight you have about how to do this effectively. Maybe even examples of when it has been done?

Oh c'mon when someone rage quits in protest these corporations have safeguards in place to prevent rogue actions. I'm surprised they didn't trigger a visit from the thought police given the high profile and instead let a potential bad actor remain on the premises a whole extra week? And yes all our energies should be towards changing the organizations, as systems professionals, rather than competing on "look what I c…

Can you actually point to a success story in changing an organization from the inside?

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#457

Post by krzyk »

ollerac wrote: post #381
krzyk wrote: post #282

So he doesn't believe that one should be able to protect their property? If looting is not the one that should be discouraged with shots, then what about rape? If that also not, then where it starts? How do you stop looters? Asking nicely? Mob has its own personality and it doesn't have conscious. I don't like current US president (BTW I'm not US citizen, nor do I live there), but that quote wasn't the one people sho…

This is a culturally important moment in which people in all 50 states are holding valid, peaceful protests in response to centuries of injustice. And we have a president who is not only unwilling to listen, but encourages division and hate on a daily basis. When he says "when the looting starts, then the shooting starts" he's encouraging a general atmosphere of unrest, fear, and vigilante justice against all protest…

> This is a culturally important moment in which people in all 50 states are holding valid, peaceful protests in response to centuries of injustice.

Not that peaceful, even from my side of ocean (Europe) I see stores being looted (e.g. Apple store https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-SqQBuDbRE, Louis Vuitton https://streamable.com/mniwap )

It is possible that there are groups that just mix with protesters to loot stuff, but it doesn't look good for the peaceful stuff.

As for centuries of injustice, is it still happening? And why are e.g. Asians not protesting?

> When he says "when the looting starts, then the shooting starts" he's encouraging a general atmosphere of unrest, fear, and vigilante justice against all protestors, not just violent ones.

For me it is just a warning, either you protest peacefully or something bad will happen.

Your right to protest is limited by right of other people to go on with their life peacefully - that is democracy 101 - your liberty is limited by other peoples liberty. You can protest, but you can't break windows.

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#458

Post by Stupulous »

satyrnein wrote: post #445
Stupulous wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this thread it would appear that one is either a hypocrite for complaining about something they participate in or arrogant for complaining about something they don't. Here, both. It seems like a needless exercise to classify which type each person is. We can just take both cases with a grain of salt, address their points skeptically, and move on from doing psych evals on a couple sentences about something else.

My comment was probably too snarky, but do we not have a duty to at least gently push back against our in-group labeling the out-group as stupid?

That's a good point, and I agree. But I do think it would be more pragmatic to justify why the outgroup isn't stupid than it is to go after the people who are saying so. The anger response you'll get for saying someone is arrogant probably won't get the open-mindedness you'll need to persuade someone to act differently.

Even just pointing out that the word being said is 'stupid', but the actual in-group/out-group divide is technical literacy or systems-awareness. And really just in the frame of social media. Perhaps there should be a word to describe the local ignorance that everyone engages in when they are turned off and relaxing.

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#459

Post by volkk »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #306
volkk wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a tough problem to solve or reason about. i personally don't have any answers around this, but do you allow hate to spread and then be reactive about it and deal with the consequences? or do you nip it at the bud proactively allowing for potentially something that you wrote? some sort of censorship. how do you deal with it?

How about don't remove anyone or anyone's post unless it's illegal? Certainly don't target certain politicians while leaving others alone. When you can't win your argument on merit, you censor. It's up to the politicians and constituents to call out lies, why should some Ministry of Truth decide what's a lie?

i don't necessarily disagree, but what happens when other politicians/constituents aren't doing their jobs?

Re: I'm resigning from my job at Facebook

#460

Post by GordonS »

nightski wrote: post #126

I respect his decision. But I for one do not want our president, no matter who she or he is to be censored. I want to know exactly what they are saying and when. That includes any government official for that matter because it directly affects my voting decisions and actions.

Ordinarily I'd agree, but Trump is perhaps a special case here. Almost every single thing he says on social media is designed to cause division and sow the seeds of racism, xenophobia, or indeed anything that panders to would-be voters. Pretty much everything else is verifiably false, or completely ludicrous to the point where you really have to question his intelligence, let alone his capability to lead a country.

I genuinely wonder if we should be giving this vile person a platform through which he can so effectively reach so many people so frequently.

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