Live data from Hacker News

Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

twitter.com

451–460 of 524 posts

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah tolerance is 0% in Romania, and imo the issue is cultural. Overtaking on two lane roads while there is oncoming traffic is pretty common, and so is overtaking in sharp curves with little visibility. There are no mechanisms of reporting such issues to the police, and laws are made such ways that criminals get away with it. A few weeks ago a politician talking on their phone killed two people by entering the wrong…

I'm assuming you can easily pay your way through the legal system in Romania if you have enough cash?

Depends. It is not as easy as it used to be (i.e.: i haven't heard of people bribing police officers directly). However, what people working with / in the police told me is that once they send perpetrators to court, then they start "influencing" either prosecutors, judges, or someone within the chain.

From what I was told this is how it works:

Prosecutors are bribed to make intentional mistakes so that a judge will dismiss a case (called in Romanian "viciu de procedura", roughly translated to "procedural defect").

Judges themselves are bribed usually in high profile cases, and because of the many legal loopholes it is difficult to prove they are corrupt. Laws can often be interpreted two ways, and it's not uncommon that two lower courts give radically different sentences compared to higher courts.

I heard of cases where doctors are bribed so that a sudden serious health issue is discovered so the perpetrator doesn't get to serve time. Specifically related to traffic offences a high profile political figure recently killed two people, and although the guy was initially able to walk on his own, two days later, the individual was shown on a hospital bed unable to move. The media suspects both doctors and the judge will be influenced, because in Romania by law a judge has to establish what is the percentage of fault each party has. The guy was on the phone when he killed a car driving opposite lane, but since he has been injured "seriously" then the victim is also being blamed for ...injuring the perpetrator. Since he was hospitalized it's easier for a judge to say the victim had X% of fault and thus give a more lenient sentence.

Someone I know working for the economic police told me that they are told exactly whom not to verify, because they are known to do tax avoidance, but they "create jobs" (everything has an excuse) so they are to be left alone.

Basically, there are so many wholes in the system that one doesn't need to bribe the foot soldier, they can just bribe on part of the system and they will get away with it. Applies to traffic offences, financial crime and everything else.

Don't get me started to the amount of fraud that happens with EU funding in Romania as that's also ripe with creative ways to rig the system.

What I find very strange is that people really don't like talking about such issues, saying one should not bad mouth their own country, or when the EU raises such issues they raise the "non interference in internal affairs card". If the foreign media raises it then it's racism. There is a small number of people still opposing this, but recently the police has without shame started beating or harassing them. I see no change in sight because the culture itself is predominantly in favor of letting things work as they do.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#452
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrians had the right of way before the cars existed

No, historically carriages have held the right of way, and the higher their occupants social status the more right of way they had.

Well technically it's priority not right of way. My guess is that the concept was only codified with the introduction of traffic laws, which in most places didn't happen before the 20th century. Until then, "priority" in land probably came down to common sense: size, conventions, and social status.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that rue of all "Americans" (U.S. citizens) or is it just specific kins off places, like some suburbs? I have seen plenty of footage of people walking around large US cities. And what about rural places? Surely theree's nothing stopping people from taking long walks on the countryside if they live out in the boondocks, etc?

You can walk in the countryside all you want, but you'll be walking on the asphalt roadway with vehicles zooming along at 70mph and limited sightlines, so you'll probably end up dead in a ditch by the side of the road if you make that a lifelong habit. The driver who killed you probably won't stop, and would not be punished by the legal system even if they did.

For example: https://13wham.com/news/local/pedestrian-hit-by-car-then-tic...

Hit by a car at 3pm, i.e. broad daylight. "Deputies ticketed Weaver for not being as far off the road as possible. The driver who hit him was not charged."

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#454
post #9

That's impressive. Even more impressive is that the yearly death toll has been 10 or below since around 2005. Is it because people/teens are now staying indoors more due to the internet or is it due to a policy change or is it technological improvements in cars? I don't speak norwegian so I can't read the linked article.

Being in a traffic accident is common but lethal accidents are rare. In a modern car it’s actually pretty hard to get yourself killed - you need some kind of high speed collision. Getting rid of those is the challenge.

Technological improvements in cars is a factor, but improvements in infrastructure is probably more important.

When I got my license 20 years ago, there were few roundabouts and on lots of roads there was oncoming traffic. I did overtaking where I needed to judge the timing with oncoming traffic to do it safely.

Now 20 years later I almost never overtake with oncoming traffic (as in a few times per year with 20000km). Highways are separated, often into “2+1”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road

Not because I drive slower or more safely but because there just isn’t a need.

There are almost no big 4 way intersections with 2 roads having speed 50kph or over. They are converted to roundabouts (thousands of them).

This is Sweden - but it’s pretty much the same story.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it is definitely a huge cultural problem. In the US, many drivers will ignore the existence of pedestrians altogether. For example, pulling up to an intersection and only looking to the left before making a right turn, because that is the only direction that car traffic can be coming from. It isn't every car by any means, but enough cars that pedestrians need to assume that drivers are incompetent until given evi…

>> Oh, it is definitely a huge cultural problem. In the US, many drivers will ignore the existence of pedestrians altogether. Strange, because most likely the majority of drivers also walk at least a short distance around the same cities they drive into. In the US in particular, eyballing the number of cars and the number of pedestrians in images of places like New York etc that I've seen, it's very hard to believe t…

Many drivers are commuters from the suburbs who drive in the morning, park inside or very near their office building, and drive home in the evening. The downtowns of many US cities are completely dead after "working" hours.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#456
post #365
post #354

Some contextual data from US cities in 2018 City – City Population (Metro Area Population), City Density per Square Mile, City Traffic Fatalities Oslo [1]: 690,335 (1,588,457), 3,938, 1 Nashville [2][3]: 692,587 (1,930,961), 1,374, 82 Portland [4][5]: 653,115 (2,478,810), 4,911, 34 Milwaukee [6][7]: 592,025 (1,572,245), 6,155, 68 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville,_Tenn…

Need to look at total miles driven, not just population size vs. number of deaths. Doesn't Norway have huge taxes on automobiles which chill ownership? If so, then population is not relevant. If only 10% of people can afford to own cars, then the number of crashes and fatalities will certainly be low. The US standard of living is far higher. Whether that leads to more fatalities or not is anybody's guess. I would pre…

I guess you haven't been to Norway! And you might say "well it ain't fair they drive less miles". Maybe that is the point.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#457
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is totally different from, for example, Copenhagen, Stockholm That's not right in my experience. Swedes walk across when it's red. Danes wait for green, even when standing by an empty road in the middle of the night. When the Øresund bridge was opened, Swedish television made news spots informing people in Scania that Danish motorist aren't used to people stepping out on the road, and to be attentive spotting d…

I’ve just spent three weeks in Stockholm, and locals seem to generally ignore red lights if there are no cars nearby.

And it's not punishable in Sweden (ie. you can walk the red light, you just have the duty to give way to vehicles and if you cause an accident, then you could be liable.)

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the two questions you ask have very little to do with each other. There's a perfectly reasonable debate to be had about the externalities of different modes of transportation, but that is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to a relatively small (but very vocal) segment of almost uniformly young and able bodied city dwellers with a fairly narrow and very strongly held set of views about what city life should…

Lol. Yeah it's those damn millenials that are ruining public debate again. There's is an equally loud segment of older car drivers who complain about the so called "war on cars" everytime somebody wants an alternative to driving.

> Lol. Yeah it's those damn millenials that are ruining public debate again.

I didn't assert that. As far as I can tell it's a tiny minority of millenials.

> There's is an equally loud segment of older car drivers who complain about the so called "war on cars" everytime somebody wants an alternative to driving.

They might be equally loud somewhere, but certainly not on HN. Also not in most EU countries as far as I can tell, but I don't presume to speak more broadly than that.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They seem surprised when I honk at them. Maybe roll down your window and say something instead of blaring your horn at people who aren’t encased in a car. Although I am not sure why you think you have a right to teach strangers a lesson.

When the dude is walking across a 3 way 45MPH in each direction street in a low light situation. Then 1 block away was a well lit cross walk. Yeah he gets the horn. Sorry if I did not make that clear. Did not think I had to... Oh that happened to me just last week. Although I am not sure why you think it is OK for that 1 dude to hold up about 40 other people.

> Then 1 block away was a well lit cross walk

> Although I am not sure why you think it is OK for that 1 dude to hold up about 40 other people

This is a perfect illustration of the US's driving-first culture. Let's do some math here. 40 people / 1.7 people per car average [1] = ~23.529 or 24 cars (which may be the case if it's rush hour, but probably not if it's not). If this is a 3 way intersection, and each of the cars is evenly distributed between directions (which I realize is incorrect, of course), then there are ~7.843 or 8 cars per side. Assuming an (informally weighted) average car size of 174 in. per car [2], with 2 ft of distance between each car, then the block length is a minimum of 1406 ft. Given that the average person walks at 4.6 ft/s [3], this distance would take 5.09 min. to traverse, just to get to your well lit next block. The average US commute is 26.1 min [4], which means just getting to the next block to cross at the well lit intersection would be 1/5 of the average commute, let alone the time most people are willing to tolerate to go to the grocery or pharmacy.

Obviously there are a lot of assumptions in this calculation, but it really goes a long way to showing how little American car-first culture thinks of pedestrian infrastructure, attractiveness, and travel times. "Just" walking over to the next, well-lit block, immediately makes a pedestrian trip for chores non-viable for anyone that values their time. To me, there also seems an in-built disdain for the time and safety of the pedestrian, and those attitudes do nothing but make it more difficult for Americans to do anything without their cars.

[1]: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/tpm/guidance/avo_factors.pdf

[2]: https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-length-car-2e85...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_walking_speed

[4]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/study-states-with-the-longes...

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#460
post #75
post #10

HN 11 months ago: Oslo made its city center basically car-free https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19000076

its not implemented yet. there are few streets here and there with limited traffic but its far from car-free.

And even when implemented, it will be not what the headline says. There will be plenty of cars in Oslo, it's just limited on a few streets and central areas.
Post reply on HN