We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#451

Post by sizzle » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:11 PM UTC

rajangdavis wrote: post #378

I spent the last year looking for a new job and it was extremely demotivating at times. The company that I ended up accepting an offer for started off with a recruiter who talked to me about my background and then asked a few technical questions to screen whether or not I knew the technologies that they were hiring for. Passed the recruiter screen. Interviewed with a hiring manager and then interviewed with the team…

I've experienced the same, honestly it's a numbers game and it took me many rejections and turning down toxic roles to find a good team of people I could enjoy being around 40+ hrs a week.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#452

Post by freddie_mercury » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #447

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. What would have to be true for you to agree that there is a shortage of software developers? Big tech cos have total comp of ~$600k/engineer. Would you think there is a shortage if they had to pay $6m/engineer? $60m? How do you define "shortage"?

Even after paying $600,000 per employee, Facebook still makes $600,000 profit per employee.

So it is currently at a 50/50 split of the value created between the employee and the company.

I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%.

The absolute number, $60,000 or $600,000 or $6,000,000 doesn't seem relevant.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#453

Post by twblalock » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #387

bufferoverflow wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

That's SV/NYC numbers. Plenty of great programmers in other parts of the country don't make that.

Even in Silicon Valley there aren’t that many companies other than FAANG offering $200k base salary. $200k total compensation, including stock and bonuses, is a different matter.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#454

Post by cardine » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #331

cardine wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice? It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for…

> Why is it your choice to make? It's not my choice. It's the technology industry's collective choice to decide how welcoming the technology industry is to newcomers. I hope you have a more compelling argument than, "It's not fair." Life ain't fair; people have mortgage payments to make, kids to feed, and aren't likely to be willing to support emotional appeals that are going to decrease their quality of life, withou…

Your argument is "I got mine fuck everyone else" which I think is about as uncompelling as an argument gets.

My argument is that getting more people into tech increases opportunities and raises the standards of living for everyone. When entire industries are disappearing due to automation I think it is rather ridiculous to try to restrict people from becoming programmers.

You are right, it is not your choice, and thankfully society is making a very different choice.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#455

Post by j79 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

After moving to California in 2011, I decided I missed the office banter and started looking for a job. I found a listing on a large, tech-based recruiting firm (cybercoders) and the job was perfect for my skills. I applied but heard nothing back.

After a week I reached out to the recruiter, and she replied with a curt, "You're not qualified for this role so we're looking elsewhere." I was a bit surprised as the reqs they described in the job listing were exactly what I had been doing for the last 3 years. But it got me thinking whether the company (HR, Hiring Manager, etc) had made the decision or if the recruiter had?

In addition, there was no additional offer from the recruiter to work with me? It was literally that one line. It got me thinking that maybe my experience(s) wasn't valued by the recruiter as someone worth pursuing, as I may be more "work" to land a job than she would want to invest?

Anyway, with my pride slightly dinged, I immediately wrote off the recruiter (and cybercoders as a whole) as someone I wouldn't want to work with in the future. I got a job at a larger company and a few years later, enjoyed responding to the SAME recruiter asking if I was interested in some jobs she had to offer (nothing bridge-burning worthy, but it felt great saying "NO THANKS")

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#456

Post by baddox » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #325

revvx wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a verbal promise, not a contract. They just broke it. They were unprofessional.

A verbal promise can very easily be interpreted as a contract by a court. (IANAL, and clearly YANAL)

The commenter hadn’t even done the interview yet. There’s no way a court would interpret this as a contract to pay the person that amount.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#457

Post by coffeemug » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

freddie_mercury wrote: post #452

coffeemug wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is NOT a shortage of software developers. What would have to be true for you to agree that there is a shortage of software developers? Big tech cos have total comp of ~$600k/engineer. Would you think there is a shortage if they had to pay $6m/engineer? $60m? How do you define "shortage"?

Even after paying $600,000 per employee, Facebook still makes $600,000 profit per employee. So it is currently at a 50/50 split of the value created between the employee and the company. I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%. The absolute number, $60,000 or $600,000 or $6,000,000 doesn't seem relev…

> I would expect, in a skills shortage, that the employee would be able to demand a much greater share, something closer to -- or even temporarily above -- 100%.

It would be really interesting to compare salary/profit ratio of the tech industry to recognized labor shortages in other industries.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#458

Post by dba7dba » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

itronitron wrote: post #340

dangero wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

I have noticed two things, 1) every company I have interviewed with has lied to me at some point in the process. Sometimes those are small lies, sometimes they are very big ones. I get that hiring is a complex process but a company's recruiters and hiring managers should make an effort to not over-promise and under-deliver to people that want to work there. 2) I have never received an offer from a company that asked…

> 2) salary expectation

Oh lol. I just applied for a job that asked for salary expectation. Well I guess its ok. I spent minimal amount of time uploading my resume and entering data into 4 webpage.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#459

Post by jarsin » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

externalreality wrote: post #336

This is very relevant in software these days > Super Narrow Selection Criteria e.g. "We need nodejs, mongo, grpc, golang, etc - decades of experience in software is not what we need. We need exactly those things - and we are going to give you an online code challenge to solve an irrelevant puzzle while a 27 year old sits there watching you." And then when you get the job its nothing more than spending hours upon hour…

I'll never understand why these companies are letting inexperienced employees take any part in interviewing people with significantly more experience.

If I owned a company I would never let some inexperienced fresh grad interview a senior engineer. They are letting some kid take part in one of the most important parts of their business.

It's yet another area of software development hiring where all logic and reason have gone out the window.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#460

Post by sixtypoundhound » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

j79 wrote: post #455

After moving to California in 2011, I decided I missed the office banter and started looking for a job. I found a listing on a large, tech-based recruiting firm (cybercoders) and the job was perfect for my skills. I applied but heard nothing back. After a week I reached out to the recruiter, and she replied with a curt, "You're not qualified for this role so we're looking elsewhere." I was a bit surprised as the reqs…

I've found the recruiting community to be very self-serving and manipulative. Recent example - someone who I had spoken with (shared the stage) at a conference indicated one of her clients needed someone with the my background. Naturally, a resume was on her desk before the end of the afternoon...

A few weeks later, I get a call from a retained recruiter I had worked with previously, after having had my resume sent to her by the company. She basically proceeds to "force me" out of the running for the position by talking it down. She clearly had some firm favorite sitting in the wings...

[in reality, I was out as soon as they asked me to relo my family for a lower total comp package than I was currently receiving. Yeah right.... not that hungry yet...]