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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#451

Post by AndrewKemendo »

josefresco wrote: post #344

Dear young, super smart Googlers: If your knowledge of the Middle East and terrorism goes back to ISIS/Al Qaeda - stop coding (or selling ads) and visit your local library. The history section is chalk full of wonderfully informative books that will inform your opinions. You might find that Internet tropes about terrorism to be less than accurate. For example, I just finished "Rise and Kill First" [1] a rather enligh…

Well beyond that, Military and Global Geopolitical research is a massive discipline that is studied most intensely by the Military itself.

Just like most disciplines, it's not possible to get even a basic understanding of this issue with only a year or two of study.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#452

Post by ghein »

fsloth wrote: post #224
slg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

"If your problem is with killing people, it should be with the people who ordered the killing and not the specific weapon that was used to carry out the killing." Drone strikes, as they are used, are a more evil way of taking out identified targets of other nationalities. I find the concept of a nation state summarily assassinating people a bit troubling, but drone strikes make it even worse by making it imprecise an…

Drones have the ability to be more precise than a typical forward air controller plus manned airplane as a drone can be above a target for much longer and that long duration video surveillance gives the opportunity to find the best time for a strike and to verify that it is the target.

You claim that a person on the ground is going to get better identification but they need to be hidden rather far away so that they aren't noticed and aren't hit. This reduces the typically achievable accuracy substantially from the theoretical maximum. Manned aircraft can't stay on target because of refueling needs, speed, and how loud they are, so you have very narrow windows of opportunity. Most ordnance from manned aircraft are also much larger than those used by drones, so manned aircraft typically have larger blast radius and can kill many more unintended people.

So while their can be narrow specific situations where FAC + F35 can deliver more precision, overall a drone provides much more precision and less danger to others.

This is obviously an emotional situation and many people don't believe that it is valid to kill specific individuals, as many others have claimed on this thread.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#453

Post by cwkoss »

repolfx wrote: post #181
sqdbps wrote: post #46

The irony of this particular piece is that they are publishing emails expressing concern about how the media might frame and distort such an item and doing just that. The email discussion is mainly about potential revenue if they were to win the JEDI contract it's not about maven or 'expecting the drone ai work to grow'. Also worth noting that Google isn't the only contractor for maven yet they are made as such in mo…

Google probably can't change that, at least not overnight. The reason Google are experiencing leaks and taking flak for this is that it's only Google that ever claimed to be a superior moral actor. Amazon and Microsoft, for all their faults, never claimed to be much more than tech companies that want to make money - the extent of Microsoft's moral ambition was "computers are good, let's put a computer in every home",…

Google just removed 'don't be evil' from their Code of Conduct. The timing around the drone news is interesting. I wonder if this was a deliberate PR move (seems odd) or if this was an unauthorized protest action from an insider who disagrees with developing weapon system.

https://gizmodo.com/google-removes-nearly-all-mentions-of-do...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#454

Post by cwkoss »

calibas wrote: post #3

Is my moral compass off, or does war profiteering completely violate the whole "don't be evil" thing?

https://gizmodo.com/google-removes-nearly-all-mentions-of-do...

Google is allowing their employees to be evil now

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#455

Post by ghein »

gr__or wrote: post #450
rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

From outside the US (which is where I'm from) the US military doesn't look very benevolent. Do I want my data to be used to help causes I believe to be harmful to human life? No! It's that simple.

Then shouldn't you be morally opposed to using the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency network? Or the Global Positioning System where the primary purpose is to position nuclear and conventional weapons globally on Chinese and Russian forces? Not to mention abhorring the use of semi-conductors that were created solely for the purposes of the US Department of Defense?

Be consistent!

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#456

Post by AndrewKemendo »

randcraw wrote: post #418
jonnybgood wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if the US military wants to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage as much as possible and wants technology developed to do so?

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective. Until I hear that it is, I will assume it is not, since it's much easier to achieve your mission of killing bad guys if you're also willing to kill good guys. You get more rewards for killing more bad guys, not saving more good guys. Unfortunately that's how militaries and governments work.

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective.

Not to put too fine of a point on it but even a basic search on the topic would yield a ton of official policy doing exactly that.

There is explicit guidance and long history of minimizing civilian casualties as a goal within the DoD, and such guidance is codified in multiple legal documents under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Rules of Engagement and international treaties.

To wit: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/0...

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/...

This is also taught as a basic tenet in introductory courses for new Military Officers. One example here:

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/TBS/B130936...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#457

Post by candiodari »

cpeterso wrote: post #144
remarkEon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason this is a problem is something you stated: Google brands itself as a global company. I’m an American and while I acknowledge the density of intelligent people that work at Google, the fact that they ostensibly have “global interests” makes me concerned that they could do this work safely. Please do not interpret that as some jingoistic platitude. That’s just...reality. While the “company” may be lo…

Similarly, how would people feel if Google, as a global company, was developing drone tech for other countries?

Euhm. Google, as demonstrated at maker fare, is making drone tech that has plenty of military applications : Google Maps/Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5jj6gBKGK8

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#458

Post by cwkoss »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #179
krageon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is saying that any company that supplies to a military has an economic incentive to make sure war happens. Seeing as they profit from the size of the military, that's not exactly far-fetched.

He’s making an enormous and baseless jump that any company that supplies the military must also be involved corruption and unethical war mongering. Just because an economic insentive exists, doesn’t mean people will exploit it. That’s just as senseless as saying that I’m probably a drug dealer because there’s an economic insentive for me to be. Aside from the complete lack of logic in this claim, it also doesn’t even…

> Just because an economic insentive exists, doesn’t mean people will exploit it.

I think that this statement has been proven wrong countless times throughout history.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#459

Post by manigandham »

Sharlin wrote: post #230
manigandham wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a long time since I've read this, but I believe it is stating what I said in much more eloquent terms. I'm unsure what you mean by "do better than that"?

I mean that what you posed is a false dilemma: we must be able to solve our coordination problems or face extinction.

What is the false about that dilemma? That's exactly the situation. We may overcome it, but it's certainly possible and likely even probable that we'll just wipe ourselves out.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#460

Post by candiodari »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #112
Cookingboy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of agree actually. Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future. But for the first time in history we have the tools to conduct intense warfare yet limit collateral damages and minimize cost in both human and material resources. The engineers who worked on precision strike weapons/smart bombs should be applauded instead of ostracized, in the past we'd just carpet…

I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, you're correct about reduction of collateral damage. On the other hand, weapons of old were used as part of actual wars. Precise weaponry seems to be making it too easy to kill off people without starting a war - like the US is doing with its drone strikes - which means it'll happen more. Also, I fear that the limit of precision strike weapons is being able to swiftly kill…

If it "will" happen more, then why are we seeing the opposite ? Numbers of deaths due to military conflicts has been systematically declining and drone strikes have been with us for a decade. If loosely defined, you could say they've been with us since the first precision guided missile struck (1968).

And of course there's the real can of worms that most technologies have military applications and can often even be directly weaponized. Drones being an example by themselves, but of course every source of energy is another obvious one. Add most medical discoveries, or at the very least every advance in genetics. Furthermore, say a better hashmap also helps guided munitions work faster and more precisely ...

The problem with this argument is that it is self-contradictory when you analyze it thoroughly. Furthermore, reality seems to confirm that this is contradictory.

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