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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#451

Post by LoonyBalloony »

exelius wrote: post #406
belorn wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> amok runs with guns This is the problem when discussing political issues like gun control. Gun related crimes has shown correlation with gun ownership laws. Gun accidents is naturally correlated to gun ownership. Mass public shootings however do not when adjusted for the population, but it draws so much political attention so it always get put into the discussion regardless if it match the data. Gun accidents is al…

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside. Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their wi…

How would you structure something like state sanctioned assisted suicide given this "window" of irrationality?

We have a waiting period here in the USA when you purchase a firearm from a store. Is the waiting period not long enough in your opinion?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#452

Post by workthrowaway27 »

WalterBright wrote: post #91

It's the sunk cost fallacy. When you've invested enormous amounts of treasure, careers, political capital, conventional wisdom, etc., in having a position, it is very, very hard to say "oops, that's all a big mistake, my bad!" It's much easier to double down on it.

This is probably the most correct answer.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#453

Post by scott_karana »

swarnie_ wrote: post #372
lr4444lr wrote: post #368

Thailand's policy of granting the police shoot-to-kill license against street pushers in the early years of the new millennium worked also. Why don't we copy that too, if lower metrics around overdoses and infections are sufficient motivation to make "radical" decisions?

Something about law, trial, human rights, western democracy. Pick any of the above and expand to prevent kill squads on the streets. Rodrigo Duterte is proving why that method is terrible in 2017.

I was under the impression that anyone in the Philippines was encouraged to kill drug dealers, which just masks culture/sectarian clashes?

Police-only is much different. (Though still immoral IMO)

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#454

Post by AnthonyMouse »

CptFribble wrote: post #444
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your counter examples are trite and pointless because silver cars, food, and water are all completely essential to daily life. They are not. If people who like silver cars had to drive white cars instead, life would go on and there would still be less accidents involving silver cars. That there would then be more accidents involving white cars might be a relevant factor the talking point glosses over, however. Even…

If puppy bites were traumatizing and frequently fatal, and we had 40k+ deaths per year from puppy bites, then yeah, I'd want to consider some puppy regulations. I understand your point though. I just think that gun regulation is a special case, since due to NRA influence "less guns = less gun deaths" is the only association we have to go on right now, and reducing deaths should be our primary goal.

> If puppy bites were traumatizing and frequently fatal, and we had 40k+ deaths per year from puppy bites, then yeah, I'd want to consider some puppy regulations.

That's the point. We have that number of vehicle fatalities. We don't ban cars, we improve safety. Air bags, concrete barriers on divided highways, etc.

There are a lot of things we could do to reduce the number of firearms fatalities that we aren't doing. Mandatory firearms safety classes in high schools would reduce the accident rate. The government actually prohibits normal citizens from buying body armor, even though people who know they're at high risk of being shot could otherwise buy it and cause them to be less dead. A huge proportion of the shootings in the US are drug and gang related, which means if we addressed those problems better there would be less shootings.

But it's politics. Their intent isn't to solve the problem, it's to whip people into a frenzy so they'll vote for one party or the other.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#455

Post by meebs »

pc86 wrote: post #391
scotty79 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Switzerland. From wiki about gun laws there: In 2016, the defence ministry estimated that 2 million privately owned guns are in circulation, which given a population of 8.3 million corresponds to a gun ownership rate of around 24 guns per 100 residents. This is roughly a quarter of the rate in the United States, and lower than that in the neighbouring countries of Germany, and Austria, but about the double of It…

Switzerland has a gun homicide rate of 0.50 per 100k population. The US rate is approximately 3.53 per 100k population.[0] So this begs the question, if the per capita gun ownership in Switzerland is 1/4th what it is in the US, why is gun homicide 1/7th? Are Americans just more homicidal than the Swiss? Guns are certainly an issue but not the issue. If you cut American gun ownership by 75% you'd still have more per c…

> Are American just more homicidal than the Swiss

As a non-American living in America for a few years, I'd suggest that the American environment leads to Americans seeking violence as an answer more often, yes. The vast wealth (not income, wealth) inequality, decades of racism and oppression, destruction of culture and social support, the "patriotism" emphasized by Americans, etc. all lead to a culture where violence sometimes seems necessary and even celebrated.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#456

Post by ygaf »

abiox wrote: post #448
ygaf wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogies aren't "pointless".

this seems like a strawman, because it doesn't accurately represent the statement.

It is the use of "counterexamples" that doesn't make sense.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#457

Post by sheepmullet »

dalbasal wrote: post #158
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

If you're going to look elsewhere, that opens up a new can of worms about what to consider or ignore. Take gun laws. Wildly divergent in law. Widely divergent in practice. wildly divergent in results. I agree that the debate often ignored existence proofs, but... It can be hard to take this a whole lot further. The Aussie gun example is used mostly because the narrative fits. The Tassie shooting leading to a buyback.…

> Take gun laws. Wildly divergent in law. Widely divergent in practice. wildly divergent in results.

And then we get into the practicalities and the politics!

In order to have strict gun control you first need strict border control.

Yet the group that wants strict gun control is strongly opposed to strict border control.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#458

Post by adrusi »

usrusr wrote: post #446

One reason (surely not the only one) why decriminalization is rarely talked about is that a large fraction of those who do not fall into the "war in drugs" camp are far too preoccupied talking about legalization. The fate of all middle ground positions. (Not to be confused with compromises, that are far too often the combination of the worst of each, because that somehow seems to help both sides to save face)

That's because decriminalization is a worst of both worlds option. It's not illegal to possess drugs so you see a bit of an uptick in usage, but the market is still unregulated so you have all the biggest problems remain: drugs being sold are adulterated (e.g. fentanyl), drug prices are way high because they're black market products (junkies are known to sacrifice everything they have, then steal from their family, then get kicked out of their family and steal from somewhere else in order to afford their drugs. The legal-market price of heroin is at least 10x smaller, meaning junkies won't have to become quite so decrepit, and won't be kicked out of their families, so they do that lose their support network). Without legalization, people who are curious about drugs have to interact with shady criminals to obtain them, which serves to involve them in crime.

Decriminalization would probably cause the same uptick in usage as legalization would, but unlike legalization, it wouldn't make drug use less devastating to people's lives.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#459

Post by JoeAltmaier »

scotty79 wrote: post #326
dalbasal wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in the US, but I'm skeptical. There are a lot of places where civilian gun ownership causes problems, gun crime, etc. Some of the places where it does not cause big problems (eg Switzerland) have liberal gun laws and high ownership rates. There are examples where widespread gun ownership/availability causes exactly the kinds of is "problems" that (according to some) the American founders intended it to c…

Even Switzerland. From wiki about gun laws there: In 2016, the defence ministry estimated that 2 million privately owned guns are in circulation, which given a population of 8.3 million corresponds to a gun ownership rate of around 24 guns per 100 residents. This is roughly a quarter of the rate in the United States, and lower than that in the neighbouring countries of Germany, and Austria, but about the double of It…

What? The US has 96 out of 100 people owning guns? (24 X 4) I call bad math somewhere

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#460

Post by wildmusings »

galobtter wrote: post #374
wildmusings wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very important goal, but if you believe that drug use itself is corrosive to the culture and prosperity of a people, you might prioritize overall drug use. Let's take a hypothetical. Do you prefer a society where 30% have drug problems damaging themselves and their families, but there are very few overdose deaths and diseases among that 30%? Or one in which only 5% have drug problems, but there many more death…

I don't think that has happened here though. The drug use rate in portugal is still extremely low - 2% compared to 5-10% elsewhere in the EU

That’s a highly confounding factor too then. For whatever reason, Portugal didn’t have much of a drug culture to begin with. That makes it harder to translate any lessons to other countries that do.
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