Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries • Hacker News Board

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#451

Post by tomp » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 8:59 AM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #365

johngalt wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing I see no evidence of any force being applied. Women are free to chose their own relationship types same as men. Exceptionally few choose to be breadwinner supporting a stay at home father. Vastly more choose to be stay at home mom married to an income earning dad.

I actually think this is a mirror image of "companies don't hire women / because there aren't enough qualified women!" discussion. I think there is healthy demand from women to marry a stay at home father, but not enough supply of men who prepared to be a stay at home father from a young age, dreaming about it, excellent at cooking and homemaking, etc. Pipeline needs to be fixed before stay at home fathers can be com…

My observations are the opposite. Most high-earners I know are men, so if I wanted to be a stay-at-home dad, I would have a hard time finding a high-earning partner (so the choice shifts from "who stays ar home" to "do we live a poor or middle-class lifestyle").

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#452

Post by facepalm » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:02 AM UTC

luxpir wrote: post #439

cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the father of a 10 week old baby girl, it isn't as simple as just society enabling parents to contribute equally. I am SO into being a dad. I want to do as much caregiving as possible. However, breastfeeding kinda throws a monkey wrench into the "split all the work equally" plan. For newborns, eating is what they do most of the time (when they aren't sleeping). If you breastfeed your child, which all pediatricians…

The funny thing about breastfeeding is that advice varies between countries, despite WHO advice. Which is very short on data, IMO. China, France say bottle up, UK has a strange and emotional culture around bonding with your baby, as if men and adopted parents are unable to do so without mammary glands. I have very little time for the breastfeeding brigade, particularly those who think it induces some kind of superhum…

So you think it is plain stupid to pause your career so that you can breastfeed your kids? Obviously kids grow up without breastfeeding, although that alone doesn't tell us much - kids tend to grow up no matter what you do, and in some cases we probably simply don't know how to measure the impact of their experiences as toddlers.

Anyway - why can't the preference to breastfeed at least be accepted? Clearly some parents make that choice, and it shows in the numbers. As a result of a choice, not because of discrimination.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#453

Post by facepalm » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:05 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #221

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

Alternatively, it's because of benevolent sexism. Women aren't slobs if they want to kick back and watch day-time TV while watching kids, they're doing the hardest job in the world!

It's not actually the hardest job in the world, by a long stretch. For starters, look at jobs that actively put your life at risk. Giving birth is very risky, too, but once the baby is out I think the risks go way down - however, the riskiness of giving birth is part of why women are given the privilege to get the less strenuous stay at home work and not having to go out as lumberjacks to earn a living. On the downside I suspect the riskiness of birth is also a reason why less women get access to education: if you can only afford to send some of your kids to school, it makes more economic sense to send the kids with the higher survival rate. In some countries one in ten women die from pregnancy.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#454

Post by tomp » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:06 AM UTC

fiveop wrote: post #428

jfaucett wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men." I disagree. The primary cause is that women can become pregnant - the possibility alone is in most cases enough - in which case they leave the work force for X amount of time. Depending on country, laws, and personal preferences this time period can range from a fe…

Note, that fathers now have similar rights. There are some exceptions right around the birth, because that clearly affects women an men differently. I might also miss some differences. But the current legislation allows both my partner and me to take out equal amounts of time (about 7 month) in the coming year (we can split 14 months, as long as they each takes at least 2 and they can overlap) with 66% compensation r…

The difference is that a woman has to take time off (for health reasons), whereas the man can take time off. Economically, there is a penalty for taking time off (lower salary, lower skills, lower future earnings), its economically rational to not take time off. But only a man can make that choice.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#455

Post by belorn » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:10 AM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #444

dnautics wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nurturing roles theory is kind of sexist. I think a better theory is as follows. In almost all metrics men show higher variance than women (sometimes that is attributed to because men lack a moderating effect of an extra x chromosome). As a result the "male" skillet is more varied and men seek a wider range of jobs. Another possibility is that socially men are expected to be riskier, and so are more broadly seeki…

It's not "sexist" to acknowledge reality. Men and women (on average) have different hormone levels, and those hormones do effect our emotions and our choices.

Every study on hormones from the last 40 years has shown conclusive evidence that hormone levels within natural occurring levels has very minimal effect on behavior, emotion and life choices. If you want to find differences between gender, look at chromosomes and their effect. The purpose of hormone is to primarily regulate the reproductive system.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#456

Post by skarap » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:13 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #322

rayiner wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

> 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits that are influenced by environment/culture: Possibly OK as long as culture has gender-equal expectations and opportunities.

Isn't expecting "gender-equal expectations and opportunities" strange if you agree with "Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits"?

Why would culture expect a tall thin person and a short muscular person to be equally good at basketball and weightlifting?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#457

Post by justinjlynn » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:17 AM UTC

tajen wrote: post #429

st3v3r wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a natural thing? Or is it because emotions are considered "unmanly"?

Exact! I'm a male and I'm highly emotional, like many other males. I have had many problems with macho corporations with alpha males who look down at me because I don't smoke and I don't want a big car and "I don't have the shoulders". Too bad for them, I've created my company now, so they've been prejudiced about my skills. Worse: People tend to support only women about this. I wish we could stop being sexist in tre…

Indeed. Though, it's not just about women and men.

The malignant, controversial issues of domestic violence against women, black oppression, the discouragement of male emotional expression, and gender-based wage gaps -- to name only a few -- were never the disease, they were an awful symptom. Instead we must focus on the actual disease -- spousal abuse, racial discrimination, emotional abuse or manipulation, and incomplete or inaccurate wage information, respectively.

I understand that it's impossible to attend to all concerns of all people simultaneously. Governments and organisations need some way to focus what limited resources they have. Though perhaps, just perhaps, instead of taking the easy way out they might determine eligibility for assistance programmes or subjects of public awareness campaigns by the circumstances by which that target is disadvantaged or victimised and not just what's between the target's legs or how dark or not the target's skin is. This is really quite difficult and, in the case of assistance programmes, requires a knowledge and understanding of an individual's situation. As we know, this is remarkably difficult for any government or organisation to do. However, it is absolutely necessary if we are to justify providing these very powerful tools only to victims and not their attackers as well.

Any group which continues to advocate for targets based on criteria over which the target has no control and which does not advocate for others normalises the victimisation of those targets for which they do not advocate. That advocacy is vile and we must address it.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#458

Post by belorn » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:21 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #322

rayiner wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

What about Gender-biased job preference cause by people choosing jobs based on finding people with similar life experience?

I often see a preference in particular young adults that pick summer jobs or education based on where they can find co-students/workers that has the same gender, age, color, economical status, and life experience as they. Is this Bad, and if so, how do we eliminate that feeling of familiarity and safety that such choice brings?

There is a yearly study in Sweden that polls peoples priority when looking for job. Highest on the list is often the social environment and co-workers, and the pay (ie, the rational argument for picking a job) is often far low on the list.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#459

Post by justinjlynn » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:36 AM UTC

marchenko wrote: post #271

apta wrote: post #240

> What if it's a natural preference given It is known that women tend to be more emotional than men for instance. As such, they do well in nurturing roles like you described. I'm not saying that men can't do them, it's just that more women feel "at home" doing that kind of work.

This stereotype of women being more emotional only fits if you do not count anger as an emotion. Interestingly, anger is the emotion most associated with dominance.

I disagree with your assessment and have nothing to say about the gender comparison. However, I would posit that it's aggression, and not anger, that is associated with dominance.

Aggression is often subtle and cunning and is often considered a characteristic instead of a transient emotion. Anger, however, when it is felt is typically directly on display.

I can see how, in a societal setting, the ease with which someone who is quick to anger being easily manipulated by someone who is consistently aggressive, in their various emotional states, towards that person. In that sense, one need not be angry or easily angered to dominate a social hierarchy.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#460

Post by leereeves » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #455

leereeves wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "sexist" to acknowledge reality. Men and women (on average) have different hormone levels, and those hormones do effect our emotions and our choices.

Every study on hormones from the last 40 years has shown conclusive evidence that hormone levels within natural occurring levels has very minimal effect on behavior, emotion and life choices. If you want to find differences between gender, look at chromosomes and their effect. The purpose of hormone is to primarily regulate the reproductive system.

Untrue, but rather than link to a few of the many studies that do show an effect, let me ask:

If not hormonal, how do you explain the emotional changes in post-partum depression, menopause, pregnancy, 'roid rage, sympathetic pregancy...?