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Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

jeffgeerling.com

441–450 of 452 posts

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL > Someone reverse engineered the plug-in and put it into orca slicer and then claimed that the plugin should have been GPLed to begin with which I find dubious. I don't really see it being much different than downloading closed drivers on Ubuntu but I'm also not a open source lawyer. The GPLv3 specifically was written to address a problem called "TiVo-ization", which is when a hardware vendor uses some trick (D…

> The Linux and proprietary drivers situation is more complicated, but proprietary drivers on Linux are generally restricted to interfaces that Linux chooses to expose to them for that purpose. But the Linux kernel seems to take a narrower view of what constitutes a derivative work than was likely intended by the FSF in writing the GPL. Under a "traditional" reading of the GPL, those proprietary drivers are meant to…

The FSF's purpose in writing the GPL is the protection of end-user freedom, including the freedom to inspect and modify the code (or paying someone else to do so) of whatever software people use.

Linus' purpose in adopting the GPLv2 was something like "to avoid free-riders on his kernel code; if you make improvements upon the Linux kernel for some product, you have to share them with the users of your product".

The GPLv3 addressed a gap in the protections GPLv2 guarantees to end-users, namely that if a vendor locks down other parts of the stack (in the case of the Linux kernel and TiVo-ization, at least the bootloader), inspecting the and modifying the software can be useless for them in terms of the real freedom it grants those users— the device can just refuse to run the modified software.

For Linus, moving to GPLv3 would extend the domain of the GPL beyond the code of his project to the broader context in which it is used, namely the situation of the user. He sees this as inappropriate, in a way. He doesn't care about the broader context in which Linux is deployed or if some devices only allow you to run vendor-approved kernels. He sees the GPLv3 as changing what "GPL" means in a way that offends him.

For the FSF, the point has always been to use licensing as a mechanism to protect and promote the freedom of people using computers. The FSF's primary concern has never been the rights or conveniences of maintainers at all. It's not about "no freeriders with downstream forks who hide their patches", though that was an incidental effect of the GPLv2. The purpose is to use copyright licensing as a mechanism to inch towards a world where users who do computing— on their laptop, on their mobile phone, or on their TV's set-top box— can transparently inspect and modify all of the devices they compute on. For them, the GPLv2 had a vulnerability that made its function of protecting user freedom easily bypassable, and they patched it in the GPLv3.

But the question of whether linking against the kernel's public interfaces constitutes a derivative work is outside the scope of GPLv2 vs GPLv3 and not yet fully tested/settled by the courts.

Hopefully this context does make clearer, at least, the spirit of the license of the software Bambu inherited when they forked it from others. It's very much about letting users actually modify/replace the software running on their devices without restriction.

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#443
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still rocking my Ender 3 Pro, I printed a part 13 hrs straight and it came out fine not saying it can't be better eg. faster, multi-color/material but yeah works for me right now with Cura

I upgraded from the 3 to the 5, and had some great experiences with it. My Ender 3 was such a Printer of Theseus; I think I'd replaced everything except the extruded aluminium frame by the time I upgraded. But that's part of the hobby, surely? Like, just having a printer and having it print things first time, and never taking it apart or replacing chunks of it to see if that would work better, seems kinda dull to me…

Maybe it's a hobby for some, for me it's just a tool.

It's like bikes - someone rebuilds theirs in their garage, I take mine to the dealership for the service. For me, mine just works. I don't have endless hours for tinkering with everything I'm using.

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#444
post #30

Full disclosure: I've never owned a Bambu because I've never loved the idea of a "closed" ecosystem 3D printer, however I have used them, and am very familiar with the 3d printing space beyond Bambu. For anyone considering alternatives: You should know that almost all other 3D printers expect you to know a little more about how they actually work than Bambus. Bambus are as close as you can get to a "just works" type…

Chinese printers, like Chinese drones, Chinese PV equipment, and Chinese electric cars are inexpensive but that's because the Chinese Communist Party loves to pick winners. They subsidise the living heck out of designated national champions, dump oceans of cheap product onto the international market, kill off international competitors, and then seize control of markets. It is neither legal, nor morally defensible. Wa…

But that's not exactly the Chinese fault.

Actually try building something somewhere else - here's the process Smarter Every Day went through for a VERY simple item, nowhere the scope or complexity of the 3d printer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZTGwcHQfLY

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#445
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3D printers aren't the fire hazards of yore. They're quite reliable, fused, with multiple interlocks for various conditions (mainly around heating not matching expected rate) that will kill power. The main potential problem these days (in my view) is whether a print finishes without crashing or delaminating from the print plate, which also has workarounds... but that's only potential printer damage, not a fire.

Straight propaganda. Printers have burned down apartments in the last five years. https://www.reddit.com/r/anycubic/comments/1j4kfsr/guys_just...

When I was at the fruit company I became aware of multiple phones starting house fires. Their lawyers would immediately gag the victims and offer $$$$. IIRC it was close to 1 every fortnight I was there.

I have never had an issue with fire with one of my machines, but I have had 3 or 4 of them fail because they detected inconsistencies with their thermistor, immediately removing voltage from heating elements until they can be convinced that the problem has been resolved.

IIRC Some enders shipped with a faulty marlin firmware that had faulty thermal shut off code, and you used to receive a pamphlet with the printer to update the firmware immediately. I suspect that a lot of people simply did not.

Dont know what this bloke did, but between anycubic and the kind of person who carries a flaming 3d printer in his arms, something went very wrong.

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#446
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upgraded from the 3 to the 5, and had some great experiences with it. My Ender 3 was such a Printer of Theseus; I think I'd replaced everything except the extruded aluminium frame by the time I upgraded. But that's part of the hobby, surely? Like, just having a printer and having it print things first time, and never taking it apart or replacing chunks of it to see if that would work better, seems kinda dull to me…

Surprisingly for me I have only replaced the magnetic mat and the hot end - mat was magnetized the wrong way so I had to cut it with a razor but yeah I'm bad though, I have the nozzle run into the bed as there is noticeable sag/difference at the middle of the bed, but it's good enough for me there is some elephants foot going on but not crazy

yeah I had that, and got the auto-levelling kit to fix it, which worked. Luckily the Ender 5 didn't have that problem (it had others!) so I now have an auto-levelling kit sitting in the bits box. I'm sure I'll end up using it for something :)

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does if you make the card self destruct if you don't write "signed, ricardobeat" on it. Courts have been over this in the 1990s with Nintendo. The Gameboy wouldn't boot any game that didn't start with "signed, Nintendo" so game companies just put that there and it wasn't illegal. (Later, a trick was found to replace the signature and still boot, but it required extra chips in the game cartridge)

That is not the case, is it? You only need to spoof the BambuStudio client in order to use their cloud infrastructure. Sending prints over LAN is still possible without it. - "It is more convenient" is not a strong enough argument there, that's kind of the point of a commercial venture. - Yes, they could be nicer about it. They aren't. That doesn't make this any more legal or acceptable.

No, the fact it's a cloud Gameboy doesn't make a difference

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#448
post #440
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can use any slicer you want but Bambu > wants only their slicer to directly connect. Here it looks like you can connect Orca? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMtkIGf8xOs&t=240s

Only on LAN mode, which disables remote monitoring.

Could it be that this is a reasonable protection so that the average user is not being spied on via cameras in the printers when their computer gets compromised?

I guess you can do remote monitoring via Orca when you set the printer to developer mode?

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea about the filament swirchers, but calling core XY designs bambu clones is really funny. The core XY design that all manufacturers are now centering around has been around long before Bambu existed as a company.

The technical design maybe but they all look like bambu P1/X1 in terms of design.

Again, the predecessors also looked like bambu printers, I don't know what to tell you. There are not that many ways to design an enclosed core XY machine.

Re: Bambu Lab is abusing the open source social contract

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea about the filament swirchers, but calling core XY designs bambu clones is really funny. The core XY design that all manufacturers are now centering around has been around long before Bambu existed as a company.

Core XY didn't exist in consumer printers outside of Vorons that took hours to build. If all a new company did was take an obvious concept and make it accessible, then that just reflects poorly on the previous market leaders.

Vorons are not consumer printers. They are enthusiast DIY projects.

That aside, sure, maybe Bambu were the first to make an affordable core XY machine. But, outside of China, we still don't have an affordable core XY machine by this definition.

So Bambu were the first Chinese company to take advantage of cheap Chinese manufacturing to stop making crappy Prusa i3 clones, crappy other things, or v slot Bowden crap (Ender 3, etc.).

They were the first to "clone"[0] some existing core XY designs and make a polished and affordable product.

Cool.

I am not saying its a bad thing, but do we need to applaud it when China repeatedly undercuts the rest of the world by not playing on the same playing field?

[0]: I say clone only because many of the "clones" Prusa complained about so much were only visually similar to the uninitiated and were otherwise quite distinct (and also much lower quality). The Bambu core XY designs look a lot like other more expensive core XY designs of the time. But really core XY isn't hard, the hard part is all the fine details, which every "clone" maker has to deal with inevitably.

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