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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#441

Post by runako »

acdha wrote: post #392
CYR1X wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part all of this BS is sure at twitter if you pull this you might get a decent attrition rate but isn't the federal government known for people never quitting? If they quit, it's quiet quitting coming in every day and doing nothing. Isn't that generally the purpose behind this too? Like...good luck get a real amount of people to quit they are going to hold on for dear life

> they quit, it's quiet quitting coming in every day and doing nothing You think air traffic controllers are “doing nothing”? What VA staff, park rangers, food inspectors, etc.? I realize this stereotype is something a lot of people spend money reinforcing but you should consider why you believe it to be true of a nationwide group doing a huge range of jobs and what evidence that’s based on.

I'm convinced a lot of people who espouse this view have never worked at any large[1] private sector organization. My last stint working at a big company included seeing people routinely taking naps at work and generally behaving in the ways people associate with government employees. Smaller organizations are more efficient, but are limited in possible scope of impact.

[1] "large" here generally meaning over 100k employees, relatively concentrated (so a hypothetical org with 5k employees in each of 20 countries likely does not fit). For scale, the US has any number of domestic bases where personnel count exceeds Meta's total staffing, with a couple being roughly the size as Microsoft's US employment.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#442

Post by hattmall »

WalterBright wrote: post #362
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

I still don't know why radar does not detect aircraft on a collision course. Why technology still does not track every airplane at the airport and flag runway incursions. Why there still are not cameras constantly recording flight ops at the airport. Why are we relying on accidental dash cam recordings? Why the cockpit voice recorder still does not record video.

Radar sweeps, it takes time to get back, it takes time to relay information and it takes time to respond. When you have aircraft moving at hundreds of miles an hour crossing in close proximity the trajectory can change and result in impact before radar can gather data, assess it, make a prediction and relay that information.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#443

Post by daveguy »

V99 wrote: post #416

The first problem is that everybody who wants to do the job needs to go through the FAA academy in Oklahoma, which is seriously limited by physical & instructor capacity. So only a couple thousand people a year can work their way through there, no matter how many are willing to do the job. So first we need more training capacity, and they already have trouble hiring and retaining instructors. This is a more direct pl…

So, you're saying the FAA is struggling because we don't fund them enough to hire instructors? Seems like a Republican problem.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#444

Post by mhh__ »

hattmall wrote: post #442
WalterBright wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't know why radar does not detect aircraft on a collision course. Why technology still does not track every airplane at the airport and flag runway incursions. Why there still are not cameras constantly recording flight ops at the airport. Why are we relying on accidental dash cam recordings? Why the cockpit voice recorder still does not record video.

Radar sweeps, it takes time to get back, it takes time to relay information and it takes time to respond. When you have aircraft moving at hundreds of miles an hour crossing in close proximity the trajectory can change and result in impact before radar can gather data, assess it, make a prediction and relay that information.

You must be able to do something, though. And if not, get more data.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#445

Post by ggm »

RandomBacon wrote: post #397
VincentEvans wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe occasional free pizza, casual Friday's, and an employee of the month plaque would help?

I know your comment is a joke, but we already have that more-or-less. I'm getting close to doxxing myself, so without getting into specifics... controllers often bring in food to share, and we dress pretty casually every day. There used to be a professional dress code years ago, but that was negotiated out by the union.

So bring back a uniform so your Union can negotiate jeans-friday?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#446

Post by mhh__ »

WalterBright wrote: post #362
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

I still don't know why radar does not detect aircraft on a collision course. Why technology still does not track every airplane at the airport and flag runway incursions. Why there still are not cameras constantly recording flight ops at the airport. Why are we relying on accidental dash cam recordings? Why the cockpit voice recorder still does not record video.

> Cameras

You might be interested to know that the video feed (the marketing one at least, not the one for engineers) for the recent boom supersonic flight was just a phone and a starlink in one of the planes following. Things can be done.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#447

Post by ggm »

gamedever wrote: post #247
bloopernova wrote: post #32

(this is going to sound like I think this can be fixed with a technical solution. I don't) I wonder what the software UX is like for ATC, and if there's room for improvement? Is the software/hardware ancient? I'd hope that it is absolutely rock solid but knowing big custom projects I'm not very hopeful!

> this is going to sound like I think this can be fixed with a technical solution. I don't) Why? It's seems ripe for technical solution. Technical solutions have solved tons of things in the past. What's special about air traffic controlling?

The time to certify life-or-death changes to systems exceeds the time to train more people, or pay better to retain existing staff.

"do both" is actually a good answer. The Manhatten project did this. Thermal diffusion and other forms of concentration were initially put head-to-head in competition. It took a while for people to realise both worked, and should be run in parallel or even enriching feedstock. A competitive A or B not both position would not have worked out better.

So yes. research tech replacement, but expect it to be a 15-20 year project with the same costs as other 15-20 year projects. At the same time, don't assume tech will solve social issues, and pay ATC better and increase richness of training programmes by cloning the schools.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#448

Post by vdqtp3 »

daveguy wrote: post #443
V99 wrote: post #416

The first problem is that everybody who wants to do the job needs to go through the FAA academy in Oklahoma, which is seriously limited by physical & instructor capacity. So only a couple thousand people a year can work their way through there, no matter how many are willing to do the job. So first we need more training capacity, and they already have trouble hiring and retaining instructors. This is a more direct pl…

So, you're saying the FAA is struggling because we don't fund them enough to hire instructors? Seems like a Republican problem.

Realistically, because standing up a new academy isn't fast, and everyone wants fast solutions and won't invest long term. That isn't a party line thing, both parties have that issue.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#449

Post by kristjansson »

whycome wrote: post #390
pfannkuchen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the buyout offer went along with the cancellation of remote work. Like, if you are thinking about quitting because you don’t want to come in, here have an extra incentive to do that and take some time to find another job. ATC already couldn’t work remotely. The only people who would take a deal like this would be people who were thinking about quitting or retiring anyway. I suspect ATC will not be substanti…

Wait, why can't ATC work remotely? Serious question. They're looking at data on a screen and communicating via radio. Would the latency of any radio-digital relay be too high? Sure it's feeling like one step closer to Ender's game. But it could be possible in theory?

Hint: why do they work in a tower?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#450

Post by vdqtp3 »

kgilpin wrote: post #401

Today, hacker news solves air traffic control with either: a) More money b) Video game technology To truly get this problem, you really need to be in it. Either as a pilot or as a controller. Watching threads like this reminds me that I have expertise within a couple of specialized domains and that’s it. Beyond those, I’m a tourist.

It's refreshing to see someone say it.

As a (non-commercial) pilot it's honestly infuriating watching people who have never tried to fly a plane, never tried to locate and identify another aircraft from the air, and never controlled (or even sat with a controller or toured a tower, tracon, or center) make these claims and statements about how easy these problems they don't understand are to fix as if they're experts on the topic.

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