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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#441

Post by cdaringe »

WalterBright wrote: post #439
scoofy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

> complex debt instruments They are not complicated. Compound interest is middle school arithmetic. Too bad the public schools are inept at teaching math. I received a modest tuition loan when I went to college. There was no mystery about it. I made the payments after I graduated, and paid it off.

Username checks out. :)

Ya the arithmetic is easy. Building up the associated algebraic expression(s) though is certainly high school level where I’m from.

I wish I understood why math education is the way it is. I really have no idea. I suspect the problem’s complexities are both wide and deep

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#442

Post by kalleboo »

ryandrake wrote: post #338
mbostleman wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For number 2, how did you come up with the very narrow 15 year window of birth from 1980 to 1995? I was born in 1963 and for the entirety of my upbringing it was a forgone conclusion that the lack of post high school education had a dire and inescapable consequence in future earning and socioeconomic status.

I was born in the mid-70s, and nobody told me "Just go to college, any college, and major in anything." That was never the narrative. It was "Go to a top-N college, major in one of these very carefully enumerated majors that tend to result in good career trajectory (business, engineering, medicine, and so on), and maintain a very good GPA throughout." The messaging was very clear, from parents, teachers, and guidance…

I grew up in the latter half of the 90's and the narrative I remember was that it was a time when even like entry-level secretary jobs started requiring degrees (a phenomenon which may or may not have been exaggerated), and the reasoning was "it doesn't matter what it's a degree in, they just want to see that you have the capability to see something through to the end and not drop out"

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#443

Post by askafriend »

rr808 wrote: post #405
dgfitz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in a pile of books, on your own time. I feel compelled to link the quote from Good Will Hunting here, I will refrain. However I agree completely. I also went to a “great” school, and I learned everything from overpriced books on my own time. In fact, in my entire tenure of undergrad I never attended a full week of class, not even the first week.

Was it worth it then? Was there a benefit like meeting your classmates? I have to make the decision for my kids.

Absolutely worth it because of the environment that it put around me for four years and the peers who inspired and pushed me to do better (and also helped me grow socially, become more independent, etc).

There is nothing in adult life that's even close to that kind of environment and the growth that it fosters.

Although you have to go to a good school with great peers to experience these benefits.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#444

Post by analyte123 »

A big thing that he didn't mention: Income-based repayment programs (particularly the new SAVE plan) and Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF), while certainly well-intended, make the cost of college essentially irrelevant for people who can reasonably expect to benefit from those programs. And so the colleges up the bill. His 3 proposed solutions don't really deal with this. Obviously people on IDR or PSLF don't need to declare bankruptcy just because of the loans. And if the colleges had to carry the risk, the risk would be far less than imagined if these programs still exist in the same way as today: the federal government guarantees it will write off the loan of anyone who works in non-profits (which are about 10% of all jobs) for 10 years, or anyone who makes a small minimum payment for 20-25 years with SAVE.

The SAVE income-driven repayment plan is a big deal that will make the cost of college far worse. What you have to pay is 5% of income above 225% of the poverty line. A family of 3 making $80k pays $104 a month - it doesn't matter if they had $10,000, $100,000 or $1,000,000 in loans. If you are not planning to be in a very high-earning field, why wouldn't you borrow the maximum? Why wouldn't the colleges charge the maximum? This amounts to a giant subsidy.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#445

Post by pants2 »

labcomputer wrote: post #305
zozbot234 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year

Unfortunately since most of our jobs can be done remotely, that would likely drive a ton of software jobs overseas.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#446

Post by eesmith »

fardo wrote: post #257
eesmith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no longer any motive force towards quality, as your payment is assured There are many excellent European universities, including ones which have been around for centuries, telling me there are ways to handle your concerns. > A vigorous market for education How's that Corinthian Colleges degree working out? Costly and no quality. And exactly the life-crippling outcome we should expect in a 'vigorous market'.

This is non-responsive to my point. Pointing out that paid universities like Corinthian in a grossly distorted market predictably are not very competitive offerings, or that good offerings can nevertheless still exist in heavily distorted markets, both fail to address that > Current educational incentives caused by how payment is handled in these all-pay systems mean there is very little or no pressure exerted toward…

'In a more competitive market' sounds like an article of faith, akin to the No True Scotsman, where there's no definition of what is competitive enough until it meets the proponents' sniff test.

What would a sufficiently competitive market entail? Has it ever existed?

Would it look like modern US K-12 systems where commercial schools prioritize the most profitable students and leave the others to the public schools? Where good marketing beats good education?

How would it not be "heavily distorted" by impositions like Title 9 and other civil rights requirements? By government requirements on the school in order to receive state and federal money? By accreditation requirements?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#447

Post by ta_1138 »

scoofy wrote: post #110
lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

Then colleges are concerned when they see enrollment at many majors keep shrinking, while the demand for computer science grows, even when the college doesn't even have a proper CompSci department, but they depend on the Math school.

Then the students wonder why it's a 4 year degree with a full year wroth of non-major classes that seem unrelated, but tack on tens of thousands to the cost of the degree, plus whatever on-campus housing and meal plan, mandatory for freshmen, might cost.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#448

Post by dogcomplex »

skrebbel wrote: post #127
lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I don't like this type of comment because it's makes it seem like that this was all planned like this on purpose (by some cabal of evil schemers, I suppose?), but without the need to provide any evidence that that's indeed how it went, because nothing of the kind of is explicitly claimed. Things can go wrong without people scheming to do evil. It's not helpful to twist "these and these circumstances combined to produ…

Distinguishing between malice and ineptitude at the systemic level is nearly impossible.

If the OP's type of comment makes you uncomfortable, you might be leaning too far into putting blame on ineptitude by default, instead of a healthy at least 50/50 mix of blaming greedy malice. OP just listed the 20/20 hindsight of this all. If that makes it sound like it was all a scheme, well - who knows - but it's just as unhelpful to always suppose such circumstances could have just been incompetence with no clear evidence.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#449

Post by yCombLinks »

cheese_van wrote: post #327
labcomputer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year

Available residency slots are dictated by the funding made available through the Medicare program and ultimately Congress.

Which was ultimately lobbied at such a low a number by the AMA, the primary organization representing doctors interests in congress. https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastati...

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#450

Post by WalterBright »

nothercastle wrote: post #440
WalterBright wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders The economic law of comparative advantage means that expenses go to where they are the cheapest. The solution is not to punish companies, because if you do then the entire company moves out of the country. The solution is to look at why foreign labor is cheaper, and what can be done to make domestic labor…

Sure just allow slavery, unlimited pollution and no safety requirements or liability then the US would have no problem competing. Otherwise you have to regulate to create a level playing field

The law of comparative advantage applies even to the states. It applies everywhere.
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