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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#441

Post by arlort »

xvector wrote: post #389
johanneskanybal wrote: post #25

As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.

As an American dev I can't wait to see tech companies leave the EU and leave it in shambles as the EU realizes it never learnt how to innovate, only legislate and rent-seek from our companies. Frankly, the region needs us far more than we need it.

> Frankly, the region needs us far more than we need it.

If that were what companies genuinely felt they'd already have left, but pecunia non olet, even if you have to pay taxes on it

Moreover essentially the only relevant systemic differences between the US and Europe in the tech sector are:

- pre-existing capital

- a better financial system and regulations (of the financial system) in the US (or rather, a combination of quality and size)

- better bankruptcy laws

Even if one of the big companies left the market that'd just leave space for a (at first) slightly worse product/products to fill the niche. Not exactly "shambles"

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#442

Post by nip »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #430
nip wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s hand has been forced to implement changes that didn’t fit their vision and roadmap. I imagine that if you’re on HN you are close to developers or are a developer yourself. And if so, I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline (ie, you don’t have time to imp…

>I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline Sure. I sure do wish the demands were actually consumer centric, and not "force all these advertising tracking into your site, tank performance, and grab a bunch of unneeded user data". And of course, if I maliciously com…

You are confusing the “important customer” with “other customers”.

EU is the “important customer”, the users of PWA are “other customers”.

Using your example, you would implement tracking for that important customer (and comply 100% to the requirements as Apple did) but because of this additional bloat, the website would load 2 times slower.

After a discussion with your colleagues, you would realize that:

- Most users won’t care about the slow loading (including the important customer)

- Re-architecturing the website to keep the same level of performance while adding the necessary tracking required by the important customer would delay shipping the tracking by 1 year, past the 2 months deadline required by the important customer.

Back to your desk, you start implementing the tracking that will incur a 2x slower load time.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#443

Post by treflop »

benguild wrote: post #101
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

From Apple’s PoV, PWAs don’t earn them any money, aren’t forced through review by Apple, and decrease lock-in. There is no incentive for Apple to support PWAs.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#444

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

ambigious7777 wrote: post #284
amelius wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the way I feel too. I learned to program on an Apple ][ that I loved, before Jobs started his nefarious business practices. Woz's Apple was cool. Jobs' Apple makes me feel like they want to enslave developers, or at least milk them to the last drop.

I feel like that maybe Apple's ideas or innovation has begun to run dry. Now they're just trying to milk every single penny before they become a background player.

2013 was the peak for me. iPhone 6 and Macbook Air 2013 the last good devices.

i have macbook pro m2 at work and just typing into the terminal is laggy. plus random crashes, apps refusing to start no legacy app support.

my windows 10 is much much more stable.

their phones being turned into a super fragile glass brick with no consideration of hand ergonomics is peak hubris.

and the face ID, pure marketing gimmick that doesnt evenb work better than fingerprint or basic camera unlock.

they are purely marketing company now.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#445

Post by lloeki »

thimp wrote: post #146
benguild wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

> In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

OH (frequently):

- hey I need to to up, do you have a phone charger?

- yup, which kind?

- not "an Apple"

- oh, so USB?

- yeah the "standard" one, not the "new usb"

That said, I'm surprised many do know about the literal "usb-c" term. Micro USB A though flies over their head, it's "small usb" or "standard usb" every time.

Of note: EU here, and while they by and large don't know about the EU standardising stuff they did notice the effect. I've seen a few refer to USB-C as "universal one" (largely coz it works the same for both phones and laptops)

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#446

Post by johnnyanmac »

nip wrote: post #442
johnnyanmac wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I imagine that you have already had an important customer (to who you cannot say “no”), completely change your plans and architecture with a new feature request while setting an aggressive deadline Sure. I sure do wish the demands were actually consumer centric, and not "force all these advertising tracking into your site, tank performance, and grab a bunch of unneeded user data". And of course, if I maliciously com…

You are confusing the “important customer” with “other customers”. EU is the “important customer”, the users of PWA are “other customers”. Using your example, you would implement tracking for that important customer (and comply 100% to the requirements as Apple did) but because of this additional bloat, the website would load 2 times slower. After a discussion with your colleagues, you would realize that: - Most user…

>You are confusing the “important customer” with “other customers”.

I'd love to one day work for a place where I can dismiss monetization as "the other customer". But alas, my career hasn't been that friendly.

>Using your example, you would implement tracking for that important customer (and comply 100% to the requirements as Apple did) but because of this additional bloat, the website would load 2 times slower.

Given how the topic is:

>Following developer complaints and press reports about how PWAs were no longer functional in the EU after installing the most recent iOS betas

I fail to see how the EU is the "important customer" here. And not the powers that be in Apple telling me to maliciously comply.

The EU said "allow other app stores to exist" and my theoretical manager at Apple is saying "okay, PWAs can exist but they don't have to run well. Add in unnecessary security (because the NA version doesn't have it) that disables functionality". I don't even see how it has to do with complying with the EU, unless it's soke long term OS lock down for future app stores.

Tell me how the EU here is the one telling me to slow down my OS/browser?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#447

Post by zirror »

dev1ycan wrote: post #314

Why is Apple given so much leniency? just give Apple a 5 year ban in Europe, you'll see how quickly they decide to start begging and complying.

I think I agree, if that is legally possible. I don't think apple provides any important infrastructure like Amazon, Microsoft and Google do. It's basically a luxury company. Might be bad for the people who already own iOS devices and need it to survive in one way or another (e.g. as a wallet).

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#448

Post by elbear »

kristiandupont wrote: post #440
wokwokwok wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. Indeeed, and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. That's the argument; if you write an app that lets you run other apps inside it how do we make sure your app does security correctly? When you look at it from that perspective, you can…

I don't see how this refutes GP's point. Yes, it's a big challenge but when they are allowing other browsers, the challenge is met already. The "install to home screen" feature adds but very minute extra features.

My understanding is that Apple can provide security guarantees only for their own browser, because it's tightly integrated with the rest of their stack.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#449

Post by Arch485 »

buzzert wrote: post #375
addicted wrote: post #5

I don’t think Apple’s pettiness is gonna work in their favor. I am not in the EU but my next iPhone is almost certainly not gonna be an iPhone despite me having used a non iPhone for about 6 months in the last 15 years. Their throwing their customers under the bus just to throw a tantrum in the EU does not bode well for how they would treat their customers in other situations.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at—the statement is that it was too much work to make the feature compliant with the rules of the DMA, so the feature was removed since few people used it. Are you arguing that Apple is lying about how much work it was to execute that?

Yes

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#450

Post by elbear »

luuurker wrote: post #64
lannisterstark wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just not.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

The fact that Apple controls the entire stack means that they can provide better guarantees for security and experience and also make optimisations that are difficult or impossible when integrating 3rd party software.
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