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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#441

Post by lelanthran »

alkonaut wrote: post #90
commitpizza wrote: post #81

Here is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into eve…

Politics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.

> Politics is everywhere and everything.

Sure, but just because the $FOO software project is happy to incorporate political views on User Freedoms vs Developer Freedoms, it doesn't mean that proselytsing some particular political candidate is welcome.

IOW, when people reject a particular political topic, you can't very well turn around and say "How dare you; you talk about free software, and that's political too!"

A community willing to engage in one political activity doesn't automagically open the door for every vocal minotiry to spam them until they cave.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#442

Post by tester756 »

tpoacher wrote: post #387

One thing I always find interesting / amusing is how the timing of certain types of post here on HN is in a sense far more informative (e.g. by implication as to "what is the current zeitgeist that has suddenly made this "news" or relevant again?), than the linked articles themselves. E.g. crablang wasn't exactly announced yesterday for this to be newsworthy in itself; but an HN top post on crablang almost serves as…

Indeed, I was like - wut? again?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#443

Post by johannes1234321 »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #359
weinzierl wrote: post #55

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

> Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. I see it as: there's a finite amount of people who choose to dedicate their unpaid free time contributing to making Rust better (working on fixing bugs, new features, etc.) This seems like fragmentation which basically will slow down progress. Now, obviously the people who choose to dedicate their free time to open source software are enti…

Even if we agree that there is a fixed finite amount of people, mind that not everybody will work with everybody wit h the same process.

Having only a single organisation might prevent some people from contributing, who in a different environment might submit ideas and do some work.

The results then may influence the other project as well.

Human interaction is complicated ...

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#444

Post by timkofu »

weinzierl wrote: post #55

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

It’s evidence of division and strife. They have allowed the environment to get toxic. Groups that were planning on adopting Rust will now think twice, as it’s future now looks uncertain. All organizations that produce something valuable face this test, it’s the ones that don’t fracture that succeed.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#445

Post by insanitybit »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #415
nindalf wrote: post #192

This fork promises "All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!" Compelling, until you realise that all the commits are auto-merges of rust-lang/rust's main branch. Which means the same teams doing the same work, under a different name. Rust is experiencing growing pains because they're still figuring out a governance structure that works for everyone. They want to simultaneously keep th…

> This fork promises "All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!" Compelling, until you realise that all the commits are auto-merges of rust-lang/rust's main branch. Which means the same teams doing the same work, under a different name. It started out specifically as a reaction to Rust's take on trademarks, so shipping the exact same code with a different name was the point .

OK but it says "100% less bureaucracy", although it doesn't actually seem to have a plan for that. Changing the name is... fine? Like it's definitely a thing you can do, for sure.

I'm not sure what that accomplishes - you can use this project and there's no trademark policy so... I guess you could abuse that if you wanted to? Like you could start your own "CrabCon" and no one could say anything about it legally... ok.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#447

Post by rightbyte »

iudqnolq wrote: post #87
dijit wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let a thousand flowers bloom is a common misquotation of Chairman Mao Zedong's "Let a hundred flowers blossom". That slogan was used in the summer of 1957 when the Chinese intelligentsia were invited to criticise the political system then obtaining in Communist China. The full quotation, taken from a speech of Mao's in Peking in February 1957, is: "Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought co…

Shortly afterwards everyone who took advantage of the invitation was punished. There's two theories - It was a trap - Mao didn't expect serious criticism, was surprised, and lashed out

If the session took place I would go for the latter. Many of those dictator types actually think they are that good at what they are doing.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#448

Post by smt88 »

andrewflnr wrote: post #404
Levitz wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do human rights have to do with any of this? Isn't this about trademarks?

I think they're dredging up Brendan Eich's opposition to gay marriage. But no, the latest kerfuffle isn't trademarks, either. If you're interested, it's all over r/rust.

I wasn't dredging it up. I was replying to someone who dredged it up first.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#449

Post by pie_flavor »

silisili wrote: post #423
pie_flavor wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find no trace of childish bickering in the language, tools, libraries, or documentation. I'm not sure why people doing silly things off in the distance would bias you against using Rust, the use of which would not involve those people ever.

While I think your statement is true, a few reasons: 1 - I will inevitably end up on some mailing list or forums when researching libraries, correct way to do things, etc, where such people interact. 2 - As 'governors' of the language, how can I trust them to make sound investments in the future? I don't want to just learn a language and tooling as a one off. 3 - I don't want to support organizations that act this wa…

1) This is an accurate complaint. By my estimation (on the official discord) they interact in such a way for an amortized three of the 1440 minutes in the day.

2) The language is pretty great. Further serious investment is going to be primarily in the third-party libraries department.

3) You need make no contributions, financial or otherwise. I am probably a net drain on the foundation's resources.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#450

Post by insanitybit »

fooker wrote: post #406
ezekiel68 wrote: post #256

It's a whitelabel copy based on policy disagreements, not unlike the "Iceweasel" (now Debian Firefox-ESR)[0] fork of Firefox. Just dawned on me after I wrote the first sentence that both actions targeted Mozilla offspring. [0] https://wiki.parabola.nu/IceWeasel_History

This means something about Mozilla policies/politics is going wrong.

There's nothing wrong with Firefox policy that led to IceWeasel. Mozilla owns the Firefox Trademark. Someone wanted to avoid that so they created IceWeasel.

This is working as intended. There's no controversy, there's no one saying "wow I can't believe Mozilla would own the Firefox trademark !", it's just... how someone wanted to play it.

It's incredibly unlikely that this was necessary or actually achieved anything meaningful other than "Mozilla's trademark policy does not apply to this"... but that's a whole other thing.

edit: Actually, what it achieves is that Debian can distribute a modified Firefox (because I believe they may modify source code for it) without representing it as Mozilla Firefox, which is great. Again, working as intended - now no one is confused, you know that the Firefox you are getting is not the one straight from Mozilla.

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