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Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#441
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Just eat less meat. We eat far more than is needed even according to the (disputed) literature suggesting meat is necessary for a balanced diet. This doesn’t have to be a binary decision.

Alternatively, we eat as much meat and figure out how to reduce emissions in other ways. Meat production is part of the equation but its focus in these discussions seems largely agenda-based than anything else. It's a convenient scapegoat. > according to the (disputed) literature suggesting meat is necessary for a balanced diet. Meat being necessary hinges on veganism being a legitimate replacement. Is veganism legit…

Did you read my comment? It’s seems you are back to dichotomising to “just as much meat” Vs véganisme.

Why not just eat less meat?! No matter how it’s produced, there is a basic physics to this that means it’s always going to use more land than growing plants.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#442
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> the key point is that neither the IPCC nor NASA GISS reports are affected You: scientific consensus got more precise over time. Me: it got less precise over time and there's no consensus on the right answer for a core variable. You: if you drop models you "know" are wrong then it's got more precise! That isn't a rebuttal it's a confirmation. The models have been getting less precise about core variables over time…

From my perspective, trying multiple things, testing them, and picking the ones which had the best predictive values seems exactly like the scientific process working as intended. ¾ of the models did not have this problem, after all. Remember, science isn’t the process of assuming you’re right but rather testing your ideas harshly and learning from the faults you discover. Given half a century of reliable predictions…

After witnessing and taking part in many such debates also around COVID, it's become apparent that a lot of people don't really understand the scientific process. What you've given here is a good example. Recap: study, hypothesize, predict, observe, validate, announce. This is the process meant to be followed by a person or team as part of being a scientist. Ordering matters!

1. You aren't allowed to go around announcing you fully understand the mechanism at play until you have successfully validated your hypothesis via enough correct predictions being generated by it.

2. You aren't allowed to team up with others, make every possible prediction and then when one of them ends up right by chance, claim credit for the entire group. That's the same thing as if a single person made dozens of predictions and then cherry-picked one to claim understanding.

3. You aren't allowed to change the data to fit the theory. You have to derive the theory from the data.

Climatologists and really quite a few other fields don't work this way. Because they make predictions with a 20 year horizon but want fame, glory and funding before then, they make an endless series of predictions that can't be validated until the end of their career, and then immediately skip to the announce stage. They do it over and over. When after a decade or two it becomes clear their predictions were wrong, they point at predictions they made last year - not yet validated - announce them as correct and state that their earlier incorrectness was just science at work. Or they decide it must be evidence of an error with the data and go fishing for reasons to change/ignore it. There's endless examples of this, and Climategate revealed not only them doing it but literally stating to their colleagues they were going to do it because otherwise the skeptics would win, and far from scientists embracing skeptical review they actually turned out to hate it and call it things like "Lord Voldemort".

Re: global cooling. The Ars article wriggles around and omits a lot of relevant evidence, but I find actually the top comment to be the clearest example of how it all goes wrong. It's by a climatologist who worked on modelling during the 70s. He says things like:

- "I found him [Schneider] to be an excellent scientist, but also a political creature, and thus a funding magnet."

i.e. so-called "excellent scientists" were corrupted by a desire for political influence and money, exactly what skeptics argue today

- "various senators wanted to show off these models to prove they were worthy of the huge federal funds to build them."

i.e. the science became a circular process of justifying prior funding grants, exactly what skeptics argue today.

- "the early models were pioneering efforts on overburdened (slow) computers, so oceans were ignored"

i.e. the models were known to be inaccurate but presented to the public anyway, exactly what skeptics argue today.

- "The answer we got was predictable: Meh, can't tell. But the additional funding sure helped."

i.e. politicians weren't told the models were useless and so the money kept flowing, exactly what skeptics argue today.

- "For a while we didn't know for sure. We simply laughed at the simplistic articles that appeared in the press"

And finally, another lie. Why do climatologists lie so fucking much, all the time? This guy claims he worked directly with Stephen Schneider who, apparently, was one of those who "didn't know for sure" and they "simply laughed" at the "simplistic articles". So why did he write a whole book about global cooling?

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Strategy-Climate-Global-Survi...

If they were "simply laughing" at the press, why was he giving interviews to the New York Times to tell them all about the threat of global cooling? Why did he tell them that this was a consensus position and why, when apparently they didn't know and the models didn't really work, did none of these people who were being mischaracterized stop laughing for a second and object?

"they [climatologists] are predicting greater fluctuations, and a cooling trend for the northern hemisphere [...] the news for the future is not all good. The climate is going to get unreliable. It is going to get cold. Harvest failures and regional famines will be more frequent"

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/07/18/archives/the-genesis-stra...

But it's a rhetorical question. We know why the press reported these views as the consensus of all climatologists, it's because none of them actually objected to it. They didn't object for the same reason they don't do that today: they love presenting a united front, and threatening that would have endangered their prestige and funding, which they care about much more than truth. Nothing has changed and nor will it until we stop listening to these people.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approximately 40% of India is vegetarian for religious reasons and have been for an extremely long time - several thousand years. I noticed that while everyone here is discussing vegetarianism, you are discussing veganism -- which is different.

Yep, I've been intentional in including veganism, and I've noticed others are bringing up vegetarianism.

I think the difference is largely uninteresting in this debate. Personally I enjoy eating meat and don't see myself giving it up entirely. I think there is a reasonable middle ground between 'we continue eating like we do now' and 'everybody will be forced at gunpoint into a vegan diet'. We could save enormous amounts of pollution and animal suffering by simply eating less meat. The existence of significant populations who have been living successfully as vegetarians or vegans for thousands of years simply demonstrates that we should not be overly concerned about side effects of reducing (not halting entirely!) our meat intake.

Suppose we (as in "the average first-world citizen") were to collectively half our meat consumption. Either by reducing portion size, or by eating it less often. The benefits would be amazing, and apart from people who make their living selling meat I don't see any real downsides.

Back when I was growing up I was used to eating meat virtually every day for dinner. These days I skip a few days each week, because I learned how to cook different stuff (and these days I have to pay for it myself, instead of my parents...).

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#444
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, we eat as much meat and figure out how to reduce emissions in other ways. Meat production is part of the equation but its focus in these discussions seems largely agenda-based than anything else. It's a convenient scapegoat. > according to the (disputed) literature suggesting meat is necessary for a balanced diet. Meat being necessary hinges on veganism being a legitimate replacement. Is veganism legit…

Did you read my comment? It’s seems you are back to dichotomising to “just as much meat” Vs véganisme. Why not just eat less meat?! No matter how it’s produced, there is a basic physics to this that means it’s always going to use more land than growing plants.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. My point is that maybe meat production in itself isn't something that really needs to be reduced because there's 1) ways to reduce its carbon footprint, 2) it's worth the cost it has on emissions because of its high utility.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#445
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize this is more pedantic than insightful, don't you?

From your comment, a reader would be misled to think that these nutrients cannot be obtained in sufficient quantities outside meat. My post is not meant to be either pedantic or insightful but to correct that misconception.

It is being pedantic, but yes, to be more precise, it's animal products. It doesn't really change the conversation about how these aren't really found in food that vegans can eat (without fortification).

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#446
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your comment, a reader would be misled to think that these nutrients cannot be obtained in sufficient quantities outside meat. My post is not meant to be either pedantic or insightful but to correct that misconception.

It is being pedantic, but yes, to be more precise, it's animal products. It doesn't really change the conversation about how these aren't really found in food that vegans can eat (without fortification).

Verdverm's claim was that there are [essential] nutrients that are found only in meat. "Animal products" instead of "meat" is an entirely different claim. I explained how it isn't pedantic but clearing up a misunderstanding, one which you must believe also exists now that you've had to clarify that you weren't supporting verdverm's claim.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#447
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When it comes to meat production, we have already reached the steady state. Well yes but also no, we've reached a steady state. If we reduce meat production we would reach a new, lower steady state which would buy some more time.

> we would reach a new, lower steady state That's right but your claim that this > would buy some more time completely ignores my (admittedly back-of-the-envelope) calculation. Please do point out if there's an error somewhere but until then I will stand by my point: Emissions from meat production – even with meat consumption as high as it is these days – are negligible in the grand scheme of things. We better focus…

With the exception of agriculturally marginal land, using land to produce food by way of animals is typically vastly more wasteful than using it to produce human-edible food directly, certainly on a per-calorie basis. There's no shortage of studies demonstrating the potential for genuine reductions in emissions (both CO2 and CH4), and reductions in the need for land-clearing, indeed freeing up land that can reforested etc. if we didn't insist on such (land-) inefficient methods of food production. Even if the emissions-savings benefits were negligible, it's hard to thing of too other many lifestyle changes we could make that have such potential ecological benefits than moderating meat consumption. If done sensibly and thoughtfully it's almost certainly going to benefit your personal health too (and, I'd argue, your tastebuds!). But obviously there's a cultural shift involved that won't happen overnight - restaurants/food retailers in particular often seem afraid to offer any more than one or two token meat-free dishes, despite the fact that if I were to list the 10 most amazing meals I've had in recent years, maybe 1 (2 at most) would contain any meat.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#448
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was serious when I said you should learn about the population-lag effect. The global population has been steadily declining since 1990 as even a cursory search would have shown you. So that eventual other readers haven’t entirely wasted their time, here is a link to the relevant UN source: https://population.un.org/wpp/Download/Standard/MostUsed/ I’m not going to bother answering the rest of your comment.

The global population has been steadily declining since 1990 I assume you mean global population growth here? The global population isn't expected to decline until 2100 [1], barring cataclysmic disasters. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth

I did indeed mean growth, sorry.

There is disagreement about when the peak will be reached. As your link shows, the UN puts it in 2086. The Global Burden of Disease Study published an article in the Lancet putting in 2064. The UN projection is solely based on current demographic trends and assumptions regarding life expectancy are quite optimistic. I have seen at least one study put the peak in the 40s while arguing that the rate of decrease in the total fertility rate is underestimated which while not likely is not impossible - historically predictions of variation in the TFR have not been very accurate.

Generally, the impact of potential feed back loops including climate change are understudied. There is a convincing argument to be made than worsening conditions could lead to the peak happening sooner.

At the end of the day, models remain models. They are not exact forecast. It's important to keep in mind when people argue we are doomed based on them.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#449
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read my comment? It’s seems you are back to dichotomising to “just as much meat” Vs véganisme. Why not just eat less meat?! No matter how it’s produced, there is a basic physics to this that means it’s always going to use more land than growing plants.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. My point is that maybe meat production in itself isn't something that really needs to be reduced because there's 1) ways to reduce its carbon footprint, 2) it's worth the cost it has on emissions because of its high utility.

I understand your point now although I think both premises are entirely unreasonable. How about we find wsa to reduce emmisions first? There is no evidence of anyone successfully doing at present. On the second point, I think you’d need to substantiate the utility of excess meat first. The evidence seems to go the other way.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#450
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point we have to consider people who deny that climate change is caused by humans to be climate deniers, since they are advocating for no change in behavior which is the same as people who outright deny that it's happening.

What behavior change should people advocate for to not be considered climate deniers? It’s starting to sound more like a temperance movement than a serious attempt to solve a problem.

Yeah, it's like a religion at this point. There are many meaningful debates to be had but people just react very emotionally and dogmatically.

What is the degree of human causation? How much can be imputed to solar cycles at any given moment of time? What % of CO2 is produced by humanity? Is there a possibility of actual catastrophe? Should pollution reduction and cleanup be prioritized over carbon capture/reduction?

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