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Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#241

Post by Moldoteck »

least wrote: post #188
throwaway09223 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Why is this a problem?" It's a problem because of the aforementioned disproportionate energy consumption. > "Animals also produce higher quality protein with higher bioavailability" Hey look, you don't have to pitch me on meat -- I'm basically a carnivore. Personal preferences don't change the underlying engineering dynamics. > "and provide nutrients that people cannot get from plants." I love meat and I'll defend…

> this just isn't a rational argument. Taurine, Creatine, Carnosine, and B12 are not found in significant amounts in plants. Heme Iron is much more bioavailable than Plant Iron or Iron supplements. Plant-based diets can also inhibit the absorption of many more nutrients, including Iron and B12. You cannot get the right type of omega-3 fatty acids through a normal plant-based diet, either, you must supplement it with…

Can't you have omega 3 with rapeseed? Also, you make a lot of statements without scientific backup. Afaik balanced pland based diet is healthy

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#242

Post by cfn »

Maursault wrote: post #195
saiya-jin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe things have changed but when I was a bit into weightlifting maybe a decade ago, common knowledge back then was that some forms of protein (ie amino acids mix of specific types and ratios) can't be realistically substituted by normally eating humans. I mean unless you want to prepare all your meals with scales. Its not about theory on paper, but what people actually eat on a given diet and how their body looks l…

> some forms of protein... can't be realistically substituted by normally eating humans. uh... > Its a fact that ie vegans lack: B12, Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency by eating foods fortified with B12, including plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals, and B12 supplements > D3, The vegan source of vitamin D3 comes from algae, produces the most body-ready form of vitamin D…

So, basically, to avoid eating meat which is what we have been doing for thousands of years, we have to eat all kinds of pharmaceutical products to compensate the deficiencies of a plant based diet.

Are we accounting the costs of the production of these products in the comparison, and do we have conclusive, long term studies that suplements are as good as eating natural products? Apparently, the first suplements only appeared around 70 years ago.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#243

Post by fwlr »

kredd wrote: post #225
kcplate wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with the attitude of “so what if the models aren’t accurate, we should still undertake giant unpopular sacrifices because I, the expert, says so…”.is that it makes people more and more distrustful of future models that may be more accurate. We just watched with front row seats what happens when once trusted scientific authorities rely on poor data, poor communications, and poor models. The general…

Significant portion of population will always act against status quo even if the data is accurate to the T. Something about “don’t let perfect be enemy of the good” heavily applies to climate modeling, in my opinion. Worst case scenario, we convert to better sources of power through a ton of investment, and make general populace’s life “cleaner” anyways.

There’s always the Lizardman Constant[1], and on top of that there’s people demanding unreasonable perfection of data, sure. But I think the post you’re replying to has a good point: public opinion of “public health” has taken a significant hit in reaction to the handling of Covid, as more information came out that contradicted earlier messaging (vaccine confers immunity -> vaccine lessens symptoms, most notably). It seems prudent to acknowledge the same could happen with climate change!

1: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and...

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#244

Post by zarzavat »

least wrote: post #188
throwaway09223 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Why is this a problem?" It's a problem because of the aforementioned disproportionate energy consumption. > "Animals also produce higher quality protein with higher bioavailability" Hey look, you don't have to pitch me on meat -- I'm basically a carnivore. Personal preferences don't change the underlying engineering dynamics. > "and provide nutrients that people cannot get from plants." I love meat and I'll defend…

> this just isn't a rational argument. Taurine, Creatine, Carnosine, and B12 are not found in significant amounts in plants. Heme Iron is much more bioavailable than Plant Iron or Iron supplements. Plant-based diets can also inhibit the absorption of many more nutrients, including Iron and B12. You cannot get the right type of omega-3 fatty acids through a normal plant-based diet, either, you must supplement it with…

When people talk about reducing meat for environmental reasons they are usually implicitly referring to red meat. Chickens are great, they consume food waste and produce eggs.

Yes there are some people who think that the best way to save the planet is to drink as much almond milk as possible. But that is not the strongest form of the argument.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#245

Post by alex_lav »

Moldoteck wrote: post #241
least wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this just isn't a rational argument. Taurine, Creatine, Carnosine, and B12 are not found in significant amounts in plants. Heme Iron is much more bioavailable than Plant Iron or Iron supplements. Plant-based diets can also inhibit the absorption of many more nutrients, including Iron and B12. You cannot get the right type of omega-3 fatty acids through a normal plant-based diet, either, you must supplement it with…

Can't you have omega 3 with rapeseed? Also, you make a lot of statements without scientific backup. Afaik balanced pland based diet is healthy

I have no dog in this fight, but will point out that asking for scientific backup and then using a word like "healthy" is kind of hypocritical. "Healthy" at best means nothing, and at worst is just a word to use to frame your agenda.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#246

Post by bigfudge »

cfn wrote: post #242
Maursault wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some forms of protein... can't be realistically substituted by normally eating humans. uh... > Its a fact that ie vegans lack: B12, Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency by eating foods fortified with B12, including plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals, and B12 supplements > D3, The vegan source of vitamin D3 comes from algae, produces the most body-ready form of vitamin D…

So, basically, to avoid eating meat which is what we have been doing for thousands of years, we have to eat all kinds of pharmaceutical products to compensate the deficiencies of a plant based diet. Are we accounting the costs of the production of these products in the comparison, and do we have conclusive, long term studies that suplements are as good as eating natural products? Apparently, the first suplements only…

No. Just eat less meat. We eat far more than is needed even according to the (disputed) literature suggesting meat is necessary for a balanced diet.

This doesn’t have to be a binary decision.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#247

Post by alex_lav »

eastof wrote: post #159
verdverm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are nutrients and amino acids only found in meat. Where do you get the replacement for this, what does that process look like, are they even metabolically equivalent?

> nutrients [...] only found in meat Nutritional yeast is tasty and naturally has b12, and most cereals/grains are fortified with it. > amino acids [...] only found in meat This just isn't true, you can get all amino acids from plant-based sources like soybeans, lentils, and peanuts. Source: I have been vegan for 5 years and I still have a healthy 6 minute mile, 25 consecutive pullups, V5-V7 range boulder problem cli…

> Source: I have been vegan for 5 years and I still have a healthy 6 minute mile, 25 consecutive pullups, V5-V7 range boulder problem climber, etc.

Is "I'm athletic right now" really a legitimate argument to "veganism at a large scale could have unintended health consequences"?

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#248

Post by smeagull »

throwaway09223 wrote: post #97
kvgr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All plants we eat are fertilized. We can stop fertilizing and all die.

Yes, but the problem is that meat consumes approximately 25 plant calories to produce 1 meat calorie. It's a reducing function, which means calorie for calorie meat produces 25 times as much greenhouse gas simply from the costs involved in plant production. This isn't universally true - some meat is grown by grazing "free" plant calories. But it is true for grain fed cattle -- for most US industrial meat production.…

Meat production also produces fertilizer.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#249

Post by wuiheerfoj »

fwip wrote: post #237
throwaway09223 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Why is this a problem?" It's a problem because of the aforementioned disproportionate energy consumption. > "Animals also produce higher quality protein with higher bioavailability" Hey look, you don't have to pitch me on meat -- I'm basically a carnivore. Personal preferences don't change the underlying engineering dynamics. > "and provide nutrients that people cannot get from plants." I love meat and I'll defend…

I think you're wildly overestimating the amount of calories consumed by "fat people" if you think it's more impactful than the 20x factor you mentioned for meats vs plants.

Presumably most obese people also eat meat though, and in higher quantities.
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