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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#441

Post by zozbot234 »

tootie wrote: post #439
throwaway894345 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a completely specious perspective and one that is peddled by conservative politicians as propaganda. Liberals have been talking about this long before the words “woke” or “CRT” fell upon conservative ears. “Conservatives say this” is merely the latest way to dismiss criticism. > It's about taking small steps to counteract injustice instead of just saying "I'm not racist" and washing your hands. The p…

I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies. Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright lie concocted by conservative politicians. Your perspectives of the liberal view is based on the worst caricature of liberal v…

> Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white.

Now, that's a rather strong statement. I think quite a few moderate liberals would agree that there are real concerns with this kind of teaching, and that we should not turn history or social studies class into an occasion for grievance mongering and 'two minutes hate' of the supposedly dominating groups.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#442

Post by tootie »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #440
zozbot234 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that everyone now living has ancestors who have done deplorable things at some time in the past. Refraining from all sorts of deplorable things, by and large, is a very recent social innovation. (Steven Pinker is especially clear on this.)

Agreed. Not only that, but there’s also a debate among historians about “presentism”—judging the past by present standards rather than by the standards of the time. For example, most (so-called) antiracists are presentists, which is why they advocate for tearing down statues of Lincoln and the like—people who were very progressive for their day, but who fell short of the standards of today (as though the people who a…

I don't follow. We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Besides, this isn't ancient history. Civil Rights was only like 60 years ago. Strom Thurmond served in Congress this century. Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#443

Post by tootie »

zozbot234 wrote: post #434
throwaway894345 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a completely specious perspective and one that is peddled by conservative politicians as propaganda. Liberals have been talking about this long before the words “woke” or “CRT” fell upon conservative ears. “Conservatives say this” is merely the latest way to dismiss criticism. > It's about taking small steps to counteract injustice instead of just saying "I'm not racist" and washing your hands. The p…

I'm pretty sure that everyone now living has ancestors who have done deplorable things at some time in the past. Refraining from all sorts of deplorable things, by and large, is a very recent social innovation. (Steven Pinker is especially clear on this.)

Completely irrelevant. The point is to improve the world we live in. To redress mistakes we're presently feeling the effects of. Not to punish every historical error.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#444

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #427
cxr wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not accurate. You said you knew of lots of good criticisms against a position, and I asked you what they were. I'm saying that I can't make out what it is about article's position that you're saying is bad. Since you mentioned opposition who are animated by the author's position, I'm asking: "Who are the opposition? What does animate them?"[1] The fact that I don't know and couldn't figure out what you're refe…

It's fine if we're just at a point where there's nothing for us to productively discuss.

[deleted]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#445

Post by throwaway894345 »

tootie wrote: post #439
throwaway894345 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a completely specious perspective and one that is peddled by conservative politicians as propaganda. Liberals have been talking about this long before the words “woke” or “CRT” fell upon conservative ears. “Conservatives say this” is merely the latest way to dismiss criticism. > It's about taking small steps to counteract injustice instead of just saying "I'm not racist" and washing your hands. The p…

I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies. Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright lie concocted by conservative politicians. Your perspectives of the liberal view is based on the worst caricature of liberal v…

> I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies.

Fair enough, but my point stands. Conservative politicians merely adopted criticizing CRT. Liberals were born in it. ;)

> Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright lie concocted by conservative politicians

Again, this gets the timeline wrong because conservative politicians weren’t even aware of this stuff at the time. Moreover, I’ve heard from parents first-hand, including photos of children’s homework. One high school student was given an assignment to reflect on ways “white people can cultivate a positive racial identity” or some such.

> Your perspectives of the liberal view is based on the worst caricature of liberal views you might find in the depths of Twitter while your perspective on the conservative view is based on the narrowest reading of stated policy.

I am a liberal, “antiracists” are deeply (and often proudly) illiberal. I also engage regularly with these identity progressives precisely because I wanted to understand their point of view.

> The 1619 Project was immaculately researched whole mainstream conservatives can't even figure out what happened in 2020.

For fuck’s sake, even the socialists think it was shoddy. Are they actually conservatives too? https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/21/bynu-d22.html Moreover, I’ll never understand why identity progressives always clap back to liberals with some variation of “oh yeah? conservatives are dumb [mic drop]”.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#446

Post by ryeguy_24 »

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #181
ryeguy_24 wrote: post #54

Isn't the real issue behind all the names (diversity, inclusion, etc) about the equalizing of opportunity or at the very least, bringing certain oppressed groups (and, if you don't think certain groups are or have been oppressed or discriminated against, educate yourself) up the opportunity curve? Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with?

> Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with? As a white man who grew up with a single mother, this is exactly what affirmative action appears to be. Why? Because I already had a rough start, and saw opportunities broadcast and given out to others that I didn't qualify for simply because I wasn't non-white. I understand the on-paper intents and purposes…

I get your point and maybe the solution to fixing historic oppression against race is hard to get perfect. And your financial problem or lack of opportunity sucks but but isn’t it a little silly to say that a program is racist when it’s trying to help a certain race who was oppressed because of their skin color.

If we stole 100 dollars from all black people and then 20 years later decided to give black people their money back, you’d say that repayment program is racist against non-blacks?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#447

Post by zozbot234 »

tootie wrote: post #443
zozbot234 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that everyone now living has ancestors who have done deplorable things at some time in the past. Refraining from all sorts of deplorable things, by and large, is a very recent social innovation. (Steven Pinker is especially clear on this.)

Completely irrelevant. The point is to improve the world we live in. To redress mistakes we're presently feeling the effects of. Not to punish every historical error.

Steven Pinker makes a way better argument in his latest two books than I could in a HN comment about why this stuff is nowhere near "completely irrelevant" if you genuinely care about bettering the world and resolving secular wrongs. By and large, squabbling about what this or that minority ethnicity might have suffered at some time in the past is very much part of the problem, not the solution.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#448

Post by yucky »

duxup wrote: post #3

How wide spread is this requirement? I've never heard about it before. >schools are requiring “Diversity Statements” as a condition for new hires Is this like when you do a self performance review and you just throw in a bunch of common phrases / text?

>How wide spread is this requirement?

Seems to be fairly widespread and growing rapidly.[1] "68 percent of job ads in the fall of 2020 mentioned diversity, and 19 percent required a separate diversity statement. That number requiring diversity statements is even higher for elite schools and tenure-track jobs. Certain fields are more likely to require diversity statements than others, with political science being the most likely among fields included in the survey."

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/05/23/diversity-st....

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#449

Post by throwaway894345 »

tootie wrote: post #442
throwaway894345 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Not only that, but there’s also a debate among historians about “presentism”—judging the past by present standards rather than by the standards of the time. For example, most (so-called) antiracists are presentists, which is why they advocate for tearing down statues of Lincoln and the like—people who were very progressive for their day, but who fell short of the standards of today (as though the people who a…

I don't follow. We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Besides, this isn't ancient history. Civil Rights was only like 60 years ago. Strom Thurmond served in Congress this century. Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?

> We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical.

Well, I live now. I’m very liberal, but am I more noble for doing fuck-all about civil rights (apart from voting) than the abolitionists who literally died to end slavery? Does the woke college student really deserve a statue more than MLK?

> Besides, this isn't ancient history.

Granted, but I don’t see the relevance. You should still judge people of the civil rights era according to the standards of their time.

> Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?

I’m not very well-versed in Forrest, but he seems like he wasn’t progressive for his time, so the answer would be “no” irrespective of presentism.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#450

Post by MisterMower »

zozbot234 wrote: post #74
bheadmaster wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would a racist indian national deeply entrenched in caste culture help my company be less racist? To be fair, there are many people from traditionally chauvinistic groups who despise the very chauvinism they live in. Many of them may be intelligent and productive people. Dismissing each and every individual because of the group is the root of discrimination. Some attempts at diversity may go too far - toleratin…

You can't meaningfully enforce open-mindedness or tolerance. The very idea is an oxymoron. The whole notion of tolerance is based on the idea that we might sometimes find it expedient to work alongside people we don't agree with about everything.

No, but you can foster and protect a culture of open minded people by pushing back against people who are actively being divisive and promoting intolerance of some groups in the name of diversity and equity.
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