Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#441

Post by lathiat » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by mardifoufs » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:32 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #429

gamblor956 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think VC funding comes from? VC's get their money from everyone else: pension funds, college endowments, charitable foundation endowments, and insurance companies. It quite literally is a case of our children funding this.

Which pension funds are investing in VCs? Pension funds generally prefer less risky investments..

Pension funds have traditionally invested very small parts of their portfolios in riskier investments. It's usually done to slightly enhance yield.

But in the past decade pension funds have increased their "alternative" investments since their traditional bread and butter,bonds and fixed income, have had abysmal yields due to low interest rates. Yet with pension payout obligations having only gotten bigger (especially in europe, with the aging population, the pressure to generate returns is pushing the fund managers to seek out riskier and riskier investments.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by rayhendricks » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

OCASM wrote: post #422

Fauntleroy wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely that you'll have weight problems because healthy food and lifestyles are much more difficult to acquire and maintain without sufficient wealth.

No shortage of healthy, yet poor people. Then again we go back to the problem of defining "healthy". Not even the ultra-wealthy are completely illness-free.

Healthy is a BMI in the normal range and following something close to the Harvard nutrition plate (USDA one is bought by big agriculture).

Being able to afford a meal service or go to Whole Foods is also much harder when you live in a food desert. Yes we do give people EBT or something but then it is spent on junk food/soda.

So how do you fix that? Maybe if you’re overweight medically speaking pay more in insurance/taxes? That would never fly tho so we are in the current national predicament.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by sixstringtheory » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #418

overgard wrote: post #176

I honestly don't mind paying more if it goes to support the drivers, but I haven't really seen a compelling argument for why all drivers should count as employees. From my perspective being an "employee" implies certain things that don't seem to apply here (predictable work times, exclusivity (so many lyft drivers are also uber drivers), etc. ) "Freelancer" seems way more appropriate, the only problem is the lack of…

You hit the hammer on the nail. If I was an employee and worked for two directly competing companies simultaneously, I’d be fired for cause.

Is it actually simultaneous? Of course drivers use multiple services, but I’ve never taken a ride with uber where the driver had passengers from lyft in the car, eg.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by mattmcknight » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #365

bgorman wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just fundamentally wrong. As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee. There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an in…

> I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor Actually you were an employee, just misclassified. If you took them to court you would likely win. Being able to set your own hours, working part time, working for other employers, quitting at any time - these are all possible in an employee relationship.

Just because they are possible in an employee relationship, setting your own hours is typically not representative of an employee relationship. Doing the same job for multiple customers is typical of an independent contractor relationship. I see no evidence of misclassification where this person was employed by multiple employers. Which of the leagues do you believe was his employer?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by macinjosh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

asdasfasdfasdf wrote: post #274

macinjosh wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your solution is to take away more choices from people?

Do you think people are really walking around thinking "I don't want health insurance because I prefer being destitute in the event of an injury"?

No, but there are people who would rather keep more of their paycheck than spend it on premiums or taxes for socialized medicine and take on that risk. Those folks are usually younger people who are more likely to work at these entry level jobs. On the flipside there are people who will risk life and limb doing something unnecessary (skiing, rock climbing, parachuting, etc.) and maybe some of them even feel safer because they know they are insured. Why should we outlaw one form of risk and not another?

People take risks. Life is all about risk and choices. I will never believe it is moral to take those choices from anyone.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by macinjosh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:47 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #189

macinjosh wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your solution is to take away more choices from people?

The choice to not have important types of insurance hurts the chooser and it hurts everyone else. There are many situations where it's best if the societal bargain restricts the options available.

who gets to decide what's best?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by username90 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:49 AM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #380

username90 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> impossible to unionize independent contractor drivers based on how the laws are written. What laws, don't you have freedom of association in USA? Just create a group, what is stopping you? Speaking as an ignorant European.

Speaking as someone generally ignorant of unions, I believe the teeth of unions lie in the collective bargaining that comes from making them mandatory. With right-to-work laws in some states (and other countries) this is often not possible, so workers can choose to look out for their immediate interests which undermines the union's power that comes from representing most or all employees. In other words, unions gener…

> I believe the teeth of unions lie in the collective bargaining that comes from making them mandatory

I don't believe that at all, mandatory unions are illegal in Europe yet unions are stronger here. It wouldn't surprise me if making them mandatory actually makes them weaker since workers are so afraid of creating unions that could potentially harm them, while I can always ignore an optional union so they aren't a problem.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#449

Post by perryizgr8 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:49 AM UTC

strbean wrote: post #231

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent cont…

> we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work.

We have one age old solution for this problem. It's called savings.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#450

Post by renewiltord » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #437

EpicEng wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a livin…

If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. That's one of the aspects of the Borello test. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm

> If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor.

How interesting. That inverts expectations: you need a reason to fire a contractor but no reason to fire an employee.

Ah, I see it:

> Whether the employer has a right to fire at will or whether a termination gives rise to an action for breach of contract; and...

You can't fire a contractor when you haven't written in end-of-contract terms in there. i.e. when you contract with someone and you say "I hire this person from time X to time Y for money Z for delivery of A" you can't just abort sometime in the middle and be like "welp! off you go then".

However, it is perfectly reasonable for you to have exit clauses in your contracts to say that you pay per ride and that either party can exit the contract at any time.

i.e. it determines whether the 'firing' is a breach-of-contract situation

Okay, that makes sense, but it's not a factor in this case. Only a naïve reading makes it work that way but that won't work if you have the exit stipulations.