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France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

reuters.com

441–450 of 578 posts

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is funny, because the reason they are not profitable on their own is because they don't need to, since they are subsidized. Competition makes those companies use any cost-saving they can. If the government takes an option away, they'll just all not use it anymore and settle down on a higher price.

And, ironically, the same people that want these subsidies argue for less government oversight because the "market will sort itself out."

Sorry but i have never heard a small government person think there should be airplane subsidies in my life.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole passenger air travel industry (airlines, aircraft manufacturers, airports, etc) is subsidized because they’re not profitable on their own. But a robust and affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy. Boeing and Airbus are two of the most heavily subsidized companies in the world, and the airlines themselves aren’t far behind. They’re both high-risk, low-mar…

This is funny, because the reason they are not profitable on their own is because they don't need to, since they are subsidized. Competition makes those companies use any cost-saving they can. If the government takes an option away, they'll just all not use it anymore and settle down on a higher price.

There’s an element of realpolitik here too: a predictable side effect of ending subsidies for the aerospace industry is that the business would shift to a country that does subsidize. Those companies build a lot of operational knowledge that is super useful — to the point of being a major strategic advantage — in wartime. It also makes you beholden to that country (and subsequent economic sphere of influence) strategically. Governments are responsible for more than just the economy.

Competition between governments is also a thing, and I think we’re already seeing it matter as part of a pullback on globalization with respect to China.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#443
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy Is it? Why? Frequent air travel is super recent.

well they need it to operate the economy in the way that it has been operated as of late. which is to say: maybe if we take that away from them, we could solve two problems at once? Pollution from air travel, and all the societal problems that a globalized economy without meaningfully global regulation brings?

If it’s the case that international air travel makes companies more competitive, all you’ll really be able to do is to further stratify the winners from the rest of the pack by sharply increasing the cost of air travel.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yuppies hunting for “experiences” is killing the planet. Leisure travel dwarfs business travel: https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number... .

You're using US statistics for some reason. Yes, Americans fly a lot. They have to visit family in a giant country with terrible rail travel options. That's why "the holidays" are far and away the busiest travel months in the US. Those trips aren't for whatever yuppie experiences you seem to look down on, but mostly to visit mom and dad. I'd like to know how many air miles are used globally for business versus leisur…

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/041315/how-much-rev...

This appears to be global (but lacks a citation), and claims that business passengers are 12% of passengers.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#445
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose the Airlines will just pass along any new taxes to the traveling consumer. Well, yeah, but what is the problem with that? The price increase thus decreasing the demand of flights, achieving the goal.

> Well, yeah, but what is the problem with that? Because Airlines seem to be the intended target and not the tourist. I would imagine they would have instituted an airport fee if the tourist was the target. >The price increase thus decreasing the demand of flights, achieving the goal. This could cause a drop in tourist dollars but maybe that's the goal. It seems Europe in general is wary of tourists. Spain has gone s…

Look at your last ticket. The fees being assessed are already being passed through to the end consumer. (Since they’re the one who is bringing the money into the system, they’re obviously the one who is paying it, but in this case it’s pretty transparent already.)

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#446
post #104
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the tax is to recover the external cost of flying. Ideally there are alternatives to flying, but it's not a requirement: as long as flying has an environmental price, recovering it through tax is a decent logic. We can discuss the offered price, or how the tax could be structured, but I don't think the approach is unreasonable on its face.

But close to nothing is being recovered. We would recover more or less the same if we introduced a tax on bad weather to be paid by those suffering from it. The money collected with this tax may or may not reduce air travel and will be spent on government employees, welfare distributions, healthcare, roads, military etc as all other taxes and only a fraction will be spent on improving the environment.

It should be less about generating revenue and more about preventing a loophole. The loophole is that it's possible for one party to make a profit at the expense of everyone else. That means there's an incentive / reward for destructive behavior.

IMHO, though, the tax should be just enough to neutralize that incentive. Anything more and you are selectively penalizing one industry, which I don't think is fair. Airlines didn't invent the concept of burning fuel to power machinery; society did, chose it as the basis for all industrial technology, and used it for everything. Air travel is just one thing on that list.

Also, the airlines were not the only ones who benefited. More or less, we all did. If ticket prices always included the carbon cost, then your business would have had to pay a higher price to fly you to that business meeting. And you would have had to pay a higher price to go on that vacation or visit those relatives.

We all had a party and trashed the place. We should all clean it up together.

So far that reason, to the extent that we can fix things with government action (funding research, etc.), I think the costs should be taken that out of the general fund. That not only everyone pays for what everyone benefited from, it also means it can be progressive and have other attributes of good tax policy.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#447
post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown:

   Ticket price USD 465.00
   Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52
   ---------
   International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00

   APHIS User Fee USD 3.96

   Immigration User Fee USD 7.00

   Customs User Fee USD 5.77

   United States International Departure Tax USD 18.60

   United States International Arrival Tax USD 18.60

   Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee USD 5.60

   Air Transport Tax USD 46.58

   German Aviation Security Charge  19.15

   Passenger Service Charge - Intl USD 23.95

   Passenger Service Charge - Dom. USD 36.81

   Passenger Facility Charge USD 4.50

   Total price USD 1,005.52

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry yes. The article says 18 euros is the cap for business international, not the starting point. This is still very small potatoes when a business class ticket isn’t going for less than $3k. Interesting that they are also not taxing transits, meaning if you just transfer through CDG, you aren’t paying the tax.

And a 3 euro flat tax for economy is small potatoes too. The original argument was that this would really hurt the poor. My counterargument was that flying is still a luxury, and the poor do not fly or fly frequently enough where this would actually be devastating to them. If anything the tax is too small to change anyone's behavior.

They're probably trying to make sure they don't charge so much that flying out of France becomes more expensive than some nearby city in a bordering country. But even so, these taxes are very, very low. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying 10 Euros on a flight if I knew it was helping rail systems. It's cheaper than the stupid "convenience fee" that I have to pay for concert tickets.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#449
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can tax fuel burned inside european airspace instead of fuel at rest once arrived at the airport. Also : >EU countries can end the decades-long exemption and tax kerosene on flights between them, according to legal experts. This could either be done at EU level through a series of bilateral agreements or by agreement between individual countries, the independent legal analysis for green NGO federation Transport &…

> You can tax fuel burned inside european airspace instead of fuel at rest once arrived at the airport. That idea would work in trains; planes do not have tracks.

Planes are not on tracks but they have a position and they are either inside or outside a country's airspace.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#450
post #447
post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights.

Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

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