I said LLVM and webassembly. LLVM has replaced JVM as a programming language target bytecode in the last 10 years (except Kotlin no new JVM language). JVM has lost web to JS 20-15 years ago, and Webassembly is now taking shape as proper web bytecode. I do not know what will be the most dominant language + bytecode in 25 years, but I would bet $10000 that it isn't Java and JVM.
llvm is not a vm. describing llvm as something that is replacing the jvm doesn't really make sense. mentioning javascript or webassembly is also a bit strange and would seem to demonstrate some kind of misunderstanding.
In 1995-2005, JVM was a serious competitor for the web, it's why JavaScript was named JavaScript.
Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…
> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…
There are active ongoing efforts to push wasm beyond the web client. Which makes perfect sense, since it could, in theory, deliver JVM's "compile once, run everywhere", but with a lot more flexibility for the languages on top.
As far as Node.js being the only JVM alternatively to take seriously, I don't even know what to say. There are lots of enterprises with mature .NET (not Core) business apps, doing all that very stuff that you list - EAI, ETL etc.
The "free one" that Oracle refer people to doesn't even come with a Windows installer , nor does it have any useful installation instructions. It's (presumably) intentionally unusable to all but the most persistent and technically knowledgeable users.
First of all, the JDK doesn't need an installer. You can put the JDK wherever you like and just point JAVA_HOME to it. Second, the JDK is intended only for developers. We have discontinued the "consumer/desktop JRE", and it is now the recommended practice for developers to create their own embedded runtimes with jlink. We are also working on a tool that would allow developers to package their applications with native…
>it is now the recommended practice for developers to create their own embedded runtimes with the JDK tooling
I am unfamiliar with Java and am curious: if I open 2 Java-based apps on my Mac or Windows box, how much of the memory devoted to Java tooling that would have been shared if the apps were built with the assumption that there is a JRE already installed locally is instead duplicated because of the recommended practice that you describe?
I don't think there's hate for it as such since HN doesn't really get into holy wars it just ignored for similar reasons to Java. There's a bias towards the novel or newer trends especially coming out of startup culture which means limited interest in the established workhorse languages, C#, Java and to a lesser extent C++ when compared to Rust, Go, etc. I only write C# despite having tried a few other languages (F#,…
Hate is not but the verbosity of java meant that you cannot afford time to type or read those statements. And the complexity. When you start up and/or hack, you are 1 p or small group. Java enterprise is not really an option. I need to move to phase 3 before I ask the team to switch to spring and JE side. Painful. But can we do it first with those. No way. And for personal project :-)
Yes I can certainly understand the reasons startup culture leans towards the less verbose less boilerplate demanding languages.
For me, my short term memory is too bad for languages without types and autocomplete on the level of JetBrains products.
I feel like C# specifically (I don't have any real Java experience) is a lot lower on boilerplate now and I can usually get a working prototype of something together in a day or two and it allows me to target games, desktop, mobile, Web, ML, etc. But it's not to everyone's taste and that's fine.
And who uses Dart? Elixir? Julia? Hardly anyone. Lots of attempts but also lots of failures, sometimes due to poor runtimes or libraries. Swift is iOS/Apple specific, at least in usage. But mobile is dominated by Android, which is moving towards Kotlin. So Kotlin is already huge right there, much larger than Dart or Elixir and probably larger than Swift, soon if not already. Meanwhile Go would probably benefit from t…
A lot of new languages fail. It's still a good measure of where things will be 10-20 years later. Look at new languages of 1990-2000: Haskell, Python, VB, Lua, R, Ruby, Java, Delphi, JS, PHP, Rebol. 4/11 are mostly irrelevant now. 4/11 are important niche languages. 3/11: Python, Java, and JS are dominant players. 1990-2000 might be special because of a massive shift toward IT systems in general, but it might not be…
VB, Delphi and Rebol would be three of the irrelevant ones, but what's the fourth?
First of all, the JDK doesn't need an installer. You can put the JDK wherever you like and just point JAVA_HOME to it. Second, the JDK is intended only for developers. We have discontinued the "consumer/desktop JRE", and it is now the recommended practice for developers to create their own embedded runtimes with jlink. We are also working on a tool that would allow developers to package their applications with native…
>it is now the recommended practice for developers to create their own embedded runtimes with the JDK tooling I am unfamiliar with Java and am curious: if I open 2 Java-based apps on my Mac or Windows box, how much of the memory devoted to Java tooling that would have been shared if the apps were built with the assumption that there is a JRE already installed locally is instead duplicated because of the recommended p…
Very, very little. Applications don't include the whole JDK, but a custom runtime they create with a tool called jlink (I meant that JDK tools, i.e. jlink, are used to create the custom runtime, not that the runtime includes the JDK tools). That runtime is only a few tens of megabytes (smaller than the shared JRE, as only modules actually used by the application are included). Also, the decision to do away with the shared JRE was sort of forced by shifting consumer and OS behaviors, that no longer encourage shared runtimes, but are shifting to containers and app stores. So whether a shared runtime is technically a better approach or not is moot, because the entire software ecosystem is shifting away from them.
« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…
For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…
Two countries in the EU that seem to be actually concerned with their futures and the welfare of their citizens...
The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…
Time for another sortie by the COBOL evangelism task force. Java has been the new COBOL since its inception in the 1990s. I programmed quite a bit in COBOL early in my career. It's an extremely efficient language for scanning records especially in an era when a large proportion of data was stored offline on mag tape. Most common business problems of the era could be expressed and solved effectively in COBOL, which is…
I think you're missing the point of the COBOL comparison. It is not meant to imply that Java is similar to COBOL as languages go, or that it is as bad as COBOL, or even that COBOL is bad.
In fact, you described exactly why it is the new COBOL: because it is also an efficient and popular language for common business problems of our era, that is hugely popular, but mostly in "unexciting" places like large internal enterprise apps, out of sight for many. And just like COBOL, it will keep ticking on like that, probably forever.
iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java. Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects ( https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling... )
What matters is that it brings money home. Maps uses Clojure, and is partially developed here in Berlin.
Wait, what, Apple Maps is partially developed in Berlin?
> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Mic…