A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#441

Post by twoquestions » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

yanilkr wrote: post #182

twoquestions wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite, UBI is in my opinion the least worst antipoverty program I've seen. What else can you do when someone's broke, homeless, and can't provide enough value to sell to get a roof over their head? Just telling people to "Work Harder!" in a market that's become increasingly hostile to unskilled labor seems callous and short-sighted. We can't just get rid of nonproductive people.

how about insurance and charities? If we have a transferrable health savings accounts for everyone, a parent can insure their child incase of worst case scenarios and the savings transfer from parent to children. If we have a productivity savings accounts for the days where you cant be productive that would handle individual level failures. Govt works best when it does less and is a last resort system instead of the…

I'm afraid I don't share your anti-state religious convictions.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#442

Post by ikeboy » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:27 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #440

ikeboy wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that argument apply to any government spending? If my enterprise relies on roads existing, and I cannot pay the full costs of maintaining the roads, say. (Ah, but roads benefit others, and we should only calculate your share! But welfare benefits others as well, it's a collective funding, so the same applies.)

Read Smith: Of the Expense of Public Works and Public Institutions The third and last duty of the sovereign or commonwealth is that of erecting and maintaining those public institutions and those public works, which, though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals, an…

I unfortunately don't currently have the time to read many primary sources.

What is the difference between roads and welfare, in your understanding?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#443

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:30 AM UTC

The wages of labour are what supports and enables labour, both in the present, and the future. It is the cost of labour.

A living wage pays for the maintenance of labour. Its feeding, housing, clothing, and education. It pays for the upkeep of a family, and the raising and education of children (the next generation of labour).

Failing to pay a living wage is the same thing as buying any factor of production below cost. While it may return a short-term advantage, it fails to ensure the continuation of supply. Worse, it creates a cascade failure in which ever higher and more skilled ranks of labour find their own wages and compensation falling, that ripples through society.

An enterprise which cannot afford to pay the full cost of its labour isn't a productive economic activity. Or perhaps, it is one which faces significant positive externalities such that its own ability to command compensation is diminished.

An enterprise which can afford to pay the full cost of provisioning labour but which does not is doing nothing more than transferring wealth from that labour pool, or from the public purse if the that purse is then called on to support the labourers, into its owners pockets as profit.

The words are mine, but the ideas are Adam Smiths, very clearly expressed in The Wealth of Nations.

I mentioned the cascade failure. Smith talks at length of the conditions of workers in England (middling), the American colonies (quite good), and in China (exceedingly poor). He notes that it's the growth rather than the size of the economy which seems to promote high wages, which is interesting to consider.

Smith doesn't describe much on how to ensure that labour does earn its fair share, though suggests that the right to organise would be a benefit.

My thoughts are leaning toward not only that but institution of an employer of last resort, with a minimum wage established through same. This would act much as a central bank does as lender of last resourt, but as an endless source of labour demand rather than currency.

The demand might be social projects which cannot themselves command market compensation, or as a market broker for labour (effectively the Mother of All Labour Unions), to which companies could bid on work (the difference coming from the public purse via taxation).

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#444

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #442

dredmorbius wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read Smith: Of the Expense of Public Works and Public Institutions The third and last duty of the sovereign or commonwealth is that of erecting and maintaining those public institutions and those public works, which, though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals, an…

I unfortunately don't currently have the time to read many primary sources. What is the difference between roads and welfare, in your understanding?

Plenty of time for pesky questions and ill-informed posts.

I'd suggest reconsidering your scheduling priorities.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#445

Post by germinalphrase » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:41 AM UTC

kefka wrote: post #355

petra wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't mean to offend anybody, but just by hearing about a lot of mentally ill people being homeless in the US, i got a bad impression. But i may be wrong. And it's not necessary a factory. It's not hard to create awful work environments.

Unfortunately a great deal of our mentally ill are in prison/jail. Back in the 70's and prior, mental health facilities were barbaric. "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" brought to light these travesties, and many were shut down. Later, republicans then shut down more by defunding as well. What effectively happens is people are shunted to other communities where better services are offered. Lookup "Greyhound therapy",…

Geraldo Rivera broke into news casting - and won a Peabody - due his reporting on neglect/abuse at the Willowbrook State a School on Staten Island. The video has a horror, flashlight-in-the-dark feel and people reacted strongly. I react strongly.

Robert Kennedy even spoke spoke out in public against the facility (his sister suffered a bad lobotomy requiring full time care). Many kinds of institutions closed in the 1970's, and for good reasons.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#446

Post by ikeboy » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:43 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #444

ikeboy wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I unfortunately don't currently have the time to read many primary sources. What is the difference between roads and welfare, in your understanding?

Plenty of time for pesky questions and ill-informed posts. I'd suggest reconsidering your scheduling priorities.

Structured versus unstructured time.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#447

Post by brightball » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:43 AM UTC

rskar wrote: post #406

ikeboy wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that argument apply to any government spending? If my enterprise relies on roads existing, and I cannot pay the full costs of maintaining the roads, say. (Ah, but roads benefit others, and we should only calculate your share! But welfare benefits others as well, it's a collective funding, so the same applies.)

Interesting what you've given us to consider, in regards to "charity benefiting its owner", to suggest these two things as comparable: (1) insufficient wages (per Adam Smith) as set by private enterprise (2) private enterprise usage of services/infrastructure as provided by government above and beyond their share of taxes Walmart was in the news recently enough ( http://www.msnbc.com/martin-bashir/mcdonalds-employee-…

The thing is that it's easier for a large business to do that than a small one...which is the type that can't afford to pay people so much more.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#448

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #13

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

Most of the UBI programs I've seen suggested drastically cut entitlement spending. The UBI _becomes_ the social safety net.

There's one school which argues for that (the Libertarian / Friedman argument typically runs along these lines).

My view is that UBI could substitute for many safety-net expenditures, but not all. It turns out that there are people with special needs or circumstances. The sick, disabled, mentally ill, children, military veterans.

Some specific targeted assistance will likely still remain.

But yes, the bulk of it should likely not be necessary.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#449

Post by yanilkr » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

aninhumer wrote: post #438

yanilkr wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. If the only thing you can imagine is taxation then you try to solve every problem with taxation.

I can imagine many things, I just think taxation is the most obvious solution to the inevitable inequality that results from allowing people to accumulate capital. And I tend to find that libertarians cling just as hard to the hammer they call "property rights".

There are similar number of people who are raising above their class and similar number of people falling below their economic class. The income inequality will probably exist no matter what we do because not everyone of us are born with same calibre and America is a huge country.

In America there is equality of opportunity but you want to give equality of outcomes which is almost impossible to do without crossing moral boundaries.

Imagine a class of students, do you think it makes the class more smarter if you take grades from better ranking students to underperforming students? Income tax is exactly that a very regressive idea.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#450

Post by yanilkr » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 3:04 AM UTC

twoquestions wrote: post #441

yanilkr wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about insurance and charities? If we have a transferrable health savings accounts for everyone, a parent can insure their child incase of worst case scenarios and the savings transfer from parent to children. If we have a productivity savings accounts for the days where you cant be productive that would handle individual level failures. Govt works best when it does less and is a last resort system instead of the…

I'm afraid I don't share your anti-state religious convictions.

I'm afraid you share an omnipotent-state convictions.