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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#441

Post by jordigh »

downandout wrote: post #386
benihana wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…

They are doing what they are doing because they have interpreted their primary religious text as explicitly instructing them to kill people that don't believe as they do. Killing another human being that poses no threat to you, regardless of what books you like to read or what instructions you believe they contain, is absolutely irrational - regardless of your "goal". Rational people have no way of understanding thes…

No, that's again a refusal to understand why they are doing it. Happy religious people (say, devout Hindus during Diwali) don't go around killing others. There is a lot of "otherness" and segregation in Europe, poverty and war in the countries of origin, and many other factors that radicalise people. Saying that they're doing it because of a book (that they probably didn't even read) is just your own way to turn them into a justifiable target.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#442

Post by kalleboo »

clock_tower wrote: post #93

I'm very curious about where the attackers got those firearms. France isn't as heavily disarmed as England, but it isn't exactly the United States for firearms availability; if any of the offenders' weapons can be recovered, I'm sure there will be interesting things to learn from their serial numbers.

Possibly stolen from the french military... http://www.france24.com/en/20150707-explosives-stolen-france...

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#443

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #310
andreasvc wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been plenty of communist-inspired violent terrorism. Germany's RAF, Italy's Red Brigade, Japan's United Red Army, Peru's Shining Path, Columbia's FARC, Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers, etc. etc. Saying these are not real communists is just a No True Scotsman. As soon as people start believing in utopias there's a danger that they will cross a line.

> As soon as people start believing in utopias there's a danger that they will cross a line. More people have been killed in pragmatic endeavours, like colonialism, and land grab/turf wars, than from "utopias". This includes smaller scale utopias -- far less innocent people have been killed by ...hippies than by policemen.

[deleted]

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#444

Post by TeMPOraL »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #434
TeMPOraL wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you would, if that was the only way to ensure survival and/or a better future for them. It would be painful, but you would feel you have to do this.

No, I would not. Absolutely not. No way. I would send the wife and kids first before going myself.

I wanted to argue with you about this but the more I think about it, the more I think I should retract my previous comment. I'm not in your head, I can't tell you what you would do. I apologize for doing that before.

I know that for me it would depend a lot on circumstances. Is the current refugee camp safe? Is the trip overseas that dangerous? Can my family handle it there, maybe caring for our grandparents while being protected by our parents? Then I would probably, with my heart broken, go alone to safeguard a place to live for them. I know I would be the kind who's naive enough to play by the books instead of just showing up in another country. But if my family staying would put them in danger, I'd definitely take them with me.

But I guess my point is that the amount of young males among the refugees can be explained by them going to secure a place for their entire family, and not willing to risk taking kids and grandparents on such a dangerous trip.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#445

Post by rdudek »

spdustin wrote: post #396
downandout wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing what they are doing because they have interpreted their primary religious text as explicitly instructing them to kill people that don't believe as they do. Killing another human being that poses no threat to you, regardless of what books you like to read or what instructions you believe they contain, is absolutely irrational - regardless of your "goal". Rational people have no way of understanding thes…

Last I heard, they were doing this to avenge their countrymen. In fact, we don't really know all the whos and the whys , we just know the whats . And what happened was a horrible thing that needs to be investigated, pored over, and responded to in a measured, rational way that doesn't become a nationstate-enabled revenge plot.

When you avenge your countrymen, you avenge by killing the people at fault... not innocent folks enjoying a concert.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#446

Post by anardil »

da1 wrote: post #199
djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

> Please stop this pointless killing. I think by definition this anything but pointless.

What do you mean by this?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#447

Post by acjohnson55 »

gotchange wrote: post #186
bensandcastle wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no gates. There is a sign. http://travel.jeffersoncampervan.com/Pictures/PixoriginalSit... Cross border travel within the EU is like moving between states in the US, easy to miss.

What about airports? I'm very positive that they check people's passports and papers in airports.

Sometimes. About 5 years ago, I walked off a plane from Baltimore to Rome and out of the airport like it was a domestic flight. No stamp or anything.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#449

Post by dbcooper »

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118
djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

Are you saying that France is a big supporter of Israel?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#450

Post by 001sky »

gozo wrote: post #426
001sky wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify how this would be "terrorism"? Terrorisms is not something targeted like this. Whethor or not it was a war crime or treason or murder or whatever (they plead guilty to manslaughter)...it's not a repeatable or scalable type of situation and was never a threat to the general public.

That has nothing to do with the definition of terrorism. Groups who do targeted attacks of sabotage that rarely kill people are also considered terrorists. For example the Earth Liberation Front is regarded as terrorists by the US. https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/dt https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/september/domterror_09...

Terrorism is anti civillian warfare. Planting sabatoge devices that kill and maim innocent people is actually terrorism/ Is it just not as effective because it maims more than it it kills? I don't get it with these pedantic aruments.

eg lets say we load a bunch of shrapnel into a tree so it maims or permanenly injures whoever the next logger is...tha is basically the same thing as lobbing hand grenades into the public square. the attacks are meant to target random people, caught unawares, in a way that conveys a persistant threat of continued, scalable future action.

Now lets take some other shady randome violence like the KGB assinating a civilian in London with radioactive isotopes in his tea. Is that terrorism? No, its a specific threat carried out in a limited capacity against a designated target. It might be criminal or a war crime or wahatever bad thing describes it, but its not "anti civilian warfare", in the same way that not all war casualties are "war crimes" in the normal usage.

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