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Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#431
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating meat fills my belly. Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. A data center costs my community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people. Can you spot the difference?

> Eating meat fills my belly. So do many other things which use less water. The estimates I've seen place the water consumption of water at such a low level that a whole month subscription consumes roughly as much water as 1-120 grams* of beef. > Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. What, is 70 not good enough? Air con, and basically all things connected to the power grid, also "costs [your] community money, damages th…

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue to take us off topic, there is actually pretty limited evidence that this is true. It is true that wine doesn't do anyone any good (unless you count it making people more social or something). But the effects of one glass a night is indistinguishable from zero. There are definitely statistically significant morbidity effects at 3. I've been shocked reading public health proclamations that "anything above…

According to the best longitudinal study from the WHO There is no safe level of alcohol consumption (1). Every molecule of alcohol is measurably bad for you physically People want to conflate their personal desires and perceived social benefits with health benefits because mental health and physical health have overlaps However they need to be separate to actually make a claim about alcohol as there are millions of p…

That's not a study from the WHO, it's a public statement they published in Lancet. It's an opinion piece.

Moreover, the WHO never changed their stance when later big studies showed that the "lowest risk" level is not actually at zero drinks.

The timeline was this:

- In 2018, a study was published in the Lancet that was the Global Burden of Disease analysis. They claimed the modeled minimum risk exposure was zero drinks. But the magnitude effects were extremely small: moving from zero to one drink a day pushed the incidence rate of alcohol-associated health effects from 914 per 100,000 people to 918 per 100,000 people. This was the basis of the "no safe level."

- Four years later, an updated Global Burden of Disease analysis, also published in the Lancet, actually reversed course on this. After controlling for more factors, they found risk was actually slightly J-shaped, and for 40+ year olds the theoretical minimum risk was about 0.5 drinks per day. The WHO ignored this updated study when they wrote their opinion piece in 2023.

- Another big study with ~600k participants published in 2018 in the Lancet shows lowest total risk consumption levels at 1 drink per day, with mortality rising above that level. The WHO also ignored this.

- The JAMA study in 2023, with >4 million participants, showed no benefit to low-volume drinking, and also no increase in harms from low volume (1 drink daily) drinking. Again, the WHO ignored it.

Several other studies have shown either no discernible risk change between zero and 1 drink per day, or lowest possible risk at 1 drink per day.

But the WHO and much of the public health policy community ignores almost all of the actual credible science on this because it does not fit with their ideology. It's a huge problem with public health policy: the actual scientists and statisticians are doing great work, but if it's not what the policy people want to hear, they discard it and keep repeating their mantra.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but when we account for that scale, and look at resource usage, datacenters aren't topping the charts, or even really getting in the top 5, for anything. You have people who eat meat at every meal losing their mind over water usage and people who set their AC to 68 panicking over energy usage.

Eating meat fills my belly. Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. A data center costs my community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people. Can you spot the difference?

How does it cost your community money?

How does it damage the environment? By using energy? Like literally any other human enterprise?

What's wrong with it creating wealth? You don't have to spend money on it, it's none of your concern what other people do.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#434
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there a big difference between those two things? People want Netflix, people also want the output of AI whether that is lobster Jesus or something else. This seems more like substituting what people want, which clearly includes AI, for what some people think others should want. I can guarantee you there are people who don’t want Netflix and think it’s a waste of resources that encourage people to binge TV, bec…

Democracy, even at its most ideal, is often about overriding preferences. Netflix helps to float an entire industry of creators and a tangible pop culture. It's not entirely clear (or softened, maybe not clear to communities) what AI build out floats currently except AI companies and the tangible negatives of generative AI.

Look, I'm not entirely convinced AI will be as revolutionary as some believe but it's still pretty clear it's able to provide capabilities we've never had before.

Dismissing it entirely is pretty hard to justify.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue to take us off topic, there is actually pretty limited evidence that this is true. It is true that wine doesn't do anyone any good (unless you count it making people more social or something). But the effects of one glass a night is indistinguishable from zero. There are definitely statistically significant morbidity effects at 3. I've been shocked reading public health proclamations that "anything above…

i don't agree, i think you are just describing a measurement problem, we have a clear mechanistic understanding of why 'anything above zero' would be bad, and are able to measure this in sufficiently large populations for larger drinkers. the effect size is smaller and thus unmeasurable above the noise floor for one glass a night, but the mechanistic story is clear.

Simple mechanistic explanations in biology are often wrong. For example, oxidative stress does not have a linear no-threshold harm.

For alcohol, almost every big study has shown either no discernible effects going from zero to 1 drink per day, or actual slight benefits going from 0 to 1 that then reverse when increasing beyond that. There is not strong consensus which of these is true, but there's definitely no real evidence that 1 drink per day is harmful as measured by all-cause mortality.

See GBD 2020 in the Lancet (which showed a slight J-curve), Wood in the Lancet 2018 (optimally low risk at 100g ethanol per week, or ~1 drink per day), Zhao in Jama (no discernible negative effects at 1 drink per day, no benefits either, no J-curve), and the latest National Acadamies review showing lowest all-cause mortality at about 1 drink per day (so, a J-curve).

Alcoholism has tons of negative effects. But these seem to start at around 2 drinks per day and rise rapidly from there.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#436

> The mean air temperature on the upwind side of the facility was approximately 42.7 °C, increasing to 43.5 °C in the neighborhood near the eastern boundary of the data center campus on the downwind side. The observed ΔT of approximately 0.8 °C extended roughly 500 m downwind Seems like we do observe heating but a much smaller average delta T than the title would hint at; I didn't see a max distance they evaluated ov…

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more people than elected the sitting president. Numbers don't really mean what you're trying to imply. Going the other way, 1% of the population hold the vast majority of the wealth while yielding all of the power.

Can you explain what you mean by "yielding all of the power"? I don't think we can really just dismiss the people who live near proposed data centers and don't have 401Ks. What do they get out of the deal?

doh! s/yielding/wielding/

I'm not concerned about people having 401Ks or not. I'm suggesting that people with 401Ks that are against data centers will at some point be benefiting from the success of the companies running those data centers. They may not be aware of it as most people do not know the individual stocks in their managed funds.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't agree, i think you are just describing a measurement problem, we have a clear mechanistic understanding of why 'anything above zero' would be bad, and are able to measure this in sufficiently large populations for larger drinkers. the effect size is smaller and thus unmeasurable above the noise floor for one glass a night, but the mechanistic story is clear.

Simple mechanistic explanations in biology are often wrong. For example, oxidative stress does not have a linear no-threshold harm. For alcohol, almost every big study has shown either no discernible effects going from zero to 1 drink per day, or actual slight benefits going from 0 to 1 that then reverse when increasing beyond that. There is not strong consensus which of these is true, but there's definitely no real…

I think there is a big difference in mechanisms between non-linearity and non-monotonicity, but I don't have bandwidth to reply in more detail.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#439
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one can live your ideals for you, if you think something should be done, you should do it, and quickly at that. If it is that urgent, why are you not doing anything? This is the world-hunger-equivalent bit fwiw. It's rather explicitly "if you care about this, why haven't you solved it", an over-the-top bad-faith argument.

You are quoting my passage for you to do something, not solve it. You then go on to reinterpret it through your own quotes to dream up me saying something I never said. Telling you to live out your own ideals vs committing stochastic terrorism online is, rather explicitly, not asking why haven't you solved that. We know that because no where in my text do you find me asking you to solve it or asking why haven't you s…

>You are quoting my passage for you to do something, not solve it.

Which is claiming I'm doing nothing because you haven't seen it. The implication is that you're disregarding "my ideals" unless I do something so impactful that you would have passively noticed.

I fully believe that's not what you intended, but that is a rather straightforward read of what you typed out, so I pointed it out.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#440

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

Current administration has gutted the EPA, which means no one cares about going the cheap route and running data centers off fossil fuels and water.
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