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Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

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Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#431

Post by plooooooop »

johnisgood wrote: post #202
water-data-dude wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...the problem is with impure products and people misusing / abusing them." That second part "people misusing/abusing them" is a lot bigger than you're letting on. People can get hooked on opiates easily - a quick trip to Wikipedia turns up: "Long-term opioid use occurs in about 4% of people following their use for trauma or surgery-related pain" [1]. That's a pretty big knock-on effect! If you're prescribed opiates…

I do not disagree with that. > if you have the right mix of brain chemistry and genetics, you might be screwed. Right. I experience no euphoria whatsoever from any opiates (in any dose)[1]. Blessing or a curse? I personally call it a blessing because I have an addictive personality so I would get hooked up on it too. It works for my pain and my depression & anxiety, and for that I am grateful, all while not causing e…

I had an opiate after surgery once and the constipation was so bad, it was worse than the pain it was supposed to be treating. I switched to Aleve instead, which was both better at pain management and had fewer side effects.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#432

Post by kelipso »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #429
kelipso wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very difficult to prove that something is genetically heritable vs heritable through other means including diet, medicines, etc. Especially when you want to account for effects in the womb, where you can't do twin studies. Even things like height and IQ, it's not clear how the heritability is passed on, much less something as complicated as high functioning autism.

Science is difficult, yes. Otherwise, no. We know a lot and with high certainty. I think it’s harmful to pretend that reality is inscrutable and that science struggles to give answers. It’s fuel for the RFK Jr type of societal parasite.

Pretending that we know a lot about something with high certainty so that you can get a one up on RFK Jr types is much more harmful, especially on the long term. The anti RFK Jr types end up being distrusted and put in the same bucket as the RFK Jr types for spreading misinformation.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#433

Post by polishdude20 »

zeven7 wrote: post #390
johnisgood wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all know about opiates No, I do not think we do, because it causes none of the side-effects associated with NSAIDs, and it is even safer than acetaminophen, i.e. there is no risk of hepatotoxicity whatsoever. The only side-effect is euphoria. Please do not mention respiratory depression here, that is a non-issue, it matters as so much as liver failure matters with acetaminophen overdoses. Opiates are safer than…

If the safest drug is also the one most prone to misuse, and misuse makes it unsafe, then it is no longer the safest drug. The reason society should be wary is precisely because people misuse it on a scale that vastly eclipses garden variety drugs like acetaminophen.

Yeah, "misuse" IS a side effect.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#434

Post by throwuxiytayq »

kelipso wrote: post #432
throwuxiytayq wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is difficult, yes. Otherwise, no. We know a lot and with high certainty. I think it’s harmful to pretend that reality is inscrutable and that science struggles to give answers. It’s fuel for the RFK Jr type of societal parasite.

Pretending that we know a lot about something with high certainty so that you can get a one up on RFK Jr types is much more harmful, especially on the long term. The anti RFK Jr types end up being distrusted and put in the same bucket as the RFK Jr types for spreading misinformation.

Cool story, but I don’t really lose any sleep over anti-science idiots prompting themselves into sustained relevance over the long term, short term, or even the next electoral term, really.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#435

Post by kelipso »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #434
kelipso wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretending that we know a lot about something with high certainty so that you can get a one up on RFK Jr types is much more harmful, especially on the long term. The anti RFK Jr types end up being distrusted and put in the same bucket as the RFK Jr types for spreading misinformation.

Cool story, but I don’t really lose any sleep over anti-science idiots prompting themselves into sustained relevance over the long term, short term, or even the next electoral term, really.

Maybe you would lose sleep over “pro-science” idiots going into sustained irrelevance as they spread their misinformation.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#436

Post by Auracle »

rainsford wrote: post #265
paulvnickerson wrote: post #225

Here's the relevant study from earlier this year: https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/using-acetaminophen-during-pre... It's a meta-analysis that considered a bunch of individual studies, their effect size, and their quality. It claims that Tylenol use has increased alongside a 20-fold increase in autism rates, suggesting causation, and recommends immediate efforts to reduce Tylenol use during pregnancy. One objection that…

The conclusion section of that very study says "...further research is needed to confirm these associations and determine causality and mechanisms" and "A causal relationship is plausible ..." [emphasis added]. In other words there is an association, but the study is not able to prove (or even suggest) causation. For example, it does not exclude the possibility that other factors that actually cause autism and Tyleno…

Right, but there are plenty of things that can cause pain. It’s reasonable (although it also sucks) to tell women that they should avoid using Tylenol during pregnancy except for fevers in the short term.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#437

Post by jjk166 »

kelipso wrote: post #432
throwuxiytayq wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is difficult, yes. Otherwise, no. We know a lot and with high certainty. I think it’s harmful to pretend that reality is inscrutable and that science struggles to give answers. It’s fuel for the RFK Jr type of societal parasite.

Pretending that we know a lot about something with high certainty so that you can get a one up on RFK Jr types is much more harmful, especially on the long term. The anti RFK Jr types end up being distrusted and put in the same bucket as the RFK Jr types for spreading misinformation.

There are people distrustful of those who proclaim the earth round. There is no threshold of certainty where unreasonable skepticism will be eliminated, science is a tool for the reasonable.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#438

Post by jjk166 »

Auracle wrote: post #436
rainsford wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion section of that very study says "...further research is needed to confirm these associations and determine causality and mechanisms" and "A causal relationship is plausible ..." [emphasis added]. In other words there is an association, but the study is not able to prove (or even suggest) causation. For example, it does not exclude the possibility that other factors that actually cause autism and Tyleno…

Right, but there are plenty of things that can cause pain. It’s reasonable (although it also sucks) to tell women that they should avoid using Tylenol during pregnancy except for fevers in the short term.

As part of a scientific study, sure.

As general medical advice, no, it's not reasonable. Acetaminophen provides real benefits, giving up those benefits requires actual proof of harm.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#439

Post by jjk166 »

philjohn wrote: post #249
piker wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always surprises me as an American in the UK how hostile the UK is to paracetamol. You buy it in like 300-pill packages in the US, and I've literally never heard of anyone having a single accidental over-dose. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone intentionally overdosing on it, but I guess I can't rule that out since I'm aware of who 1-2 people personally have taken "a handful of pills". The efficacy window of driv…

The problem becomes, 8 tablets a day, minimum of 4 hours between doses is fine for a week or so, but do that for months and the liver toxicity creeps up on you.

If you feel the need for 8 tablets a day for months, go see a doctor. Your liver is probably the least of your concerns.

Re: Kenvue stock drops on report RFK Jr will link autism to Tylenol during pregnancy

#440

Post by tptacek »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #429
kelipso wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very difficult to prove that something is genetically heritable vs heritable through other means including diet, medicines, etc. Especially when you want to account for effects in the womb, where you can't do twin studies. Even things like height and IQ, it's not clear how the heritability is passed on, much less something as complicated as high functioning autism.

Science is difficult, yes. Otherwise, no. We know a lot and with high certainty. I think it’s harmful to pretend that reality is inscrutable and that science struggles to give answers. It’s fuel for the RFK Jr type of societal parasite.

We do not in fact know with high certainty the amount of genetic causality in IQ (or the broad validity of IQ itself, but stipulate that isn't a problem). Molecular genetics has shaken things up over the last 8-10 years.
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