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Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

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431–440 of 777 posts

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#431
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that those in command are also waiting for the next President to undo all that but it is going to have a tremendous effect for a decade or more. Hopefully for the US they won't go in a similar crisis like the UK is going through... Cutting off countries like Japan or Taiwan like that when we know their geopolitical situation with China and how critical their economy is to the US is quite crazy.

Things are easier to break than they are to fix. The next president, if there will be another, will not be able to easily glue the pieces back together.

Yeah, this is the core issue. How can any ally fully trust the U.S. when major foreign policy commitments can be reversed every 4 years? One administration signs on, the next tears it up.

It's starting to look like U.S. agreements aren't really with the country, but with whoever happens to be in office. US allies is isolating itself and it's allies are going to hedge. The trend is already starting and it's going to be hard to reverse. Restoring that trust isn’t just a matter of electing the "right" leadership, either, at this juncture, I think that it would require institutional reforms and a consensus on foreign policy that transcends the electoral cycle.

I'm not going to cheer for the "downfall of US", but America is doing it to itself.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#432
post #8

This is an inherently political subject, but I would appreciate a dispassionate argument explaining how this could be even remotely good for the U.S.'s economy in a way that is light on MAGA ideology and doesn't simply claim the overwhelming majority of economists are dumb. I'm simply not seeing even a glimmer of a possible upside right now. I see even less possibility of an upside for those of us North of the border…

It seems the maximum likelihood model is a political one and not an economic one. Trump likes making deals and he historically has made them by applying his leverage and bullying people to go his way. Now he has the most powerful office in the world and a lot of leverage to bully anyone he wants (universities, law firms, other countries). Lots of lunch money will be taken but no one's going to go near the bully anymore.

At the end of the day, it's about Trump's need for attention and ability to wield power, rather than any economic objective. Tariffs are a way to wield significant power without requiring the approval of Congress.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#433

Aren’t the tariffs that the US is imposing half of what other countries have? Or was that fake news from the admin?

They aren’t the tariffs other countries are imposing, they are basically the trade deficit ratio instead. A country could have a 0% tariff on American goods but if Americans had a trade deficit with that country they would have been slapped with a tariff.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's been talking about tariffs for far longer than the current t-note cycle. He was talking about it a decade ago during his first time in office. IIRC he ran for POTUS as a Reform Party candidate in the 90s or 00s, and that party was started by Ross Perot, who was against NAFTA on the grounds that it'd cause a giant sucking sound of American jobs to Mexico. He doesn't care about the debt; you can see this in how…

> The surplus value that used to head to shareholders as a result of cheap foreign goods will go down, but that can be offset by layoffs and the like. could you just do the layoffs without the tariff if it were a conspiracy?

But then what are you doing to "help" American manufacturing?

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#435
post #10

You know the craziest thing about watching this as an outsider in Canada is that we as a nation are losing one reliable trading partner (and obviously losing an ally but that's another conversation). Germany - losing a trade partner. Japan? And so on. But the US has lost 180 reliable trading partners. You're already seeing in the first week burgeoning trade alliances between nations who wouldn't have cooperated befor…

> Of course I'm sure some people would claim this is 4D chess or what not

No one worth listening to.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil’s advocate: If you (the US) massively subsidize the world order through your financial markets, military defense, and foreign aid, it’s only fair that you get to take advantage of your position. Historically, the US has done this at the expense of its working class. Now there is a populist feeling that we are owed a long due “payback” for our generosity. The Bernie/AOC left believe the payback is owed by our el…

The US has always been incredibly mercenary with their investment. If there was a way of squeezing more blood from the stone a previous president would have done it. You learned about economic policy yesterday. Now you think that picking tariffs by throwing darts can do better than seasoned economic expert trying to maximize benefit to the US. It's just laughable.

Supposedly they have a seasoned economic expert on staff, Stephen Miran. Is this guy a kook? It wouldn't surprise me, Trump had Laura Loomer at the White House and 1/2 an hour later three members of the National Secure Council had been fired.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2025/01/0...

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/04/us/politics/trump-nsc-fir...

A central problem with this administration is it's headed by a psychopath, who has a long track record of being an untrustworthy liar. Could he pick an economics team that can actually make hard choices that are generally better for America? It's possible. But it's also possible these are just more kooks, or corrupt people looking to grift, or people who think like Peter Thiel, that democracy is over and needs to be replaced by a monarch.

My take? Impeach and remove Trump from office. Do it now. If the country wants these kinds of policies, they need to do it through the Congress. Not through a president, sane or insane.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#437

Isn't it obvious that Trump's goal are not these tariffs, but renegotiated trading agreements? But everybody just seems to love to proclaim this the end of US.

This is what all of the smart people have been saying. So pretty much yeah.

Literally not one person I would consider to be smart, or at least educated, has said any such thing.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is a liability, because in exchange for your reserve currency status you are indebting your country. Gradually, as you outsource more and produce less, your country derives more and more of its returns from soft economic assets (financial markets, legal structures, software, pharma, IP, etc.), than hard economic assets (commodities, energy, manufacturing, transportation, logistics, etc.). In the long run, thi…

Thanks for the explanation! Most of what you wrote makes sense to me. In particular, I think the concept that going hard -> soft economic assets is easier than the reverse is really interesting. I'll have to think on that more. Things that still give me pause: 1. I don't understand why hard economic assets like manufacturing are more heavily impacted by this phenomenon. Wouldn't exporting a $50,000 car and a $50,000…

1. The further you are up the chain of abstraction, the less “valuable” the export is as a form of power. Think of this as a spectrum between hard and soft assets — if you decline to sell advanced computing software to your rival, you may harm their ability to optimize crop yields, or whatever. But if you decline to sell them steel, or oil, you may decimate their energy supply and bring their economy to a halt.

So, generally speaking, harder assets have more “declination risk” for the purchaser than softer ones, because the softer ones are either a) at the tip of the value chain, or b) easier to clone and replace. China has done a great job of outright refusing US SaaS exports like social media companies, while “stealing” millions of Windows licenses from Microsoft.

Said differently, IP is fragile! If your opponent does not respect your laws, you can’t enforce them. Hard assets are the opposite, because you can more easily cut them off.

And again, they are usually at the bottom of the value chain, so everything else is dependent on them being available. No oil, no cloud computing. Not the other way around.

2. Great counterexamples. I think it depends on what you define as innovation, and perhaps more specifically what about innovation as a concept is important to you.

- There are “open” kinds of innovation that push humanity forward, grow global wealth and prosperity, and make everyone better off.

- There are also “closed” kinds of innovation that benefit only a particular group.

Generally speaking, open innovation is “fangless.” What I mean by this is that it does not greatly increase your geopolitical power. The Dutch, for example, own ASML, but this doesn’t really give them any power, because their tools are relatively “open”. Swiss companies own massive numbers of pharmaceutical patents, but that’s just a domicile on paper. If Switzerland were invaded tomorrow, their patent regime wouldn’t offer much protection.

By contrast, a more “closed” form of innovation (weapons manufacturing being the most extreme example) will dramatically increase your geopolitical power.

Think back to the atomic bomb. Now look to the future. If the US develops killer drone swarm technology, or genome-targeted bioweapons, or whatever else, that means we have the cards.

Once you have world (or space) domination technology, you can disproportionately benefit from it, and you can selectively enrich your allies by giving them access to it, like the US currently does with our weapons systems.

If you don’t vertically integrate, you can’t do closed innovation. And closed innovation is the only “hard money” — and perhaps the dominant power struggle in geopolitics.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#439
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an inherently political subject, but I would appreciate a dispassionate argument explaining how this could be even remotely good for the U.S.'s economy in a way that is light on MAGA ideology and doesn't simply claim the overwhelming majority of economists are dumb. The slim hope to a voting bloc in the Upper Midwest that maybe, somehow, this will bring back manufacturing. They've tried everything else; why…

I’m from Southern Ohio which was not hit as hard, but I know the attitude well. I call it “rust belt rage.” I remember during the first Trump election hearing quotes like “I hope he does as much damage as possible” and “I can’t throw a bomb into the White House but I can throw a Trump.” Lots more like that. The attitude in that region of the country is absolute seething rage. A lot of people from Northern Ohio, Weste…

Oh, I'm from Kansas City. I get it, and like Southern Ohio, we weren't hit as hard, but I heard the same comments.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was bringing this up with a guy yesterday who was genuinely supporting the policies and somebody chimed in that they were not worried at all, because everyone wants to trade with the big boy in town. Trust is not important if they are afraid of you (I'm paraphrasing). Quite a different perspective, but it is consistent with an observation I made about a lot of US comments, people are quite happy for their country/g…

Devil’s advocate: If you (the US) massively subsidize the world order through your financial markets, military defense, and foreign aid, it’s only fair that you get to take advantage of your position. Historically, the US has done this at the expense of its working class. Now there is a populist feeling that we are owed a long due “payback” for our generosity. The Bernie/AOC left believe the payback is owed by our el…

> To the latter crowd, the kind of “bullying” behavior you describe is actually the equivalent of a gentle giant who never stood up for himself finally deciding that he won’t take any more shit.

Assuming this generous interpretation is accurate, then it's a problem of ignorance of the people holding this view. Characterizing other countries as 'freeloaders' is exactly that - ignorance.

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