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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#431

Post by account42 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #294
freeone3000 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just not do this shit. Completely refuse to help your enemies. Actually support their users.

Firefox has 3% market share. Completely refusing to engage with your enemies only works when you have the actual guns to back that attitude up. If you refuse to engage with the ad industry they just ignore you. Oh and the company that owns a large part of the world's ad industry and owns the browser that has 65% market share also pays like 90% of your bills. I mean, what's step two of your glorious plan to charge fis…

Actually it's the other way around. As long as Firefox only has a negligible market share, advertisers are not going to care about it enough to work around Firefox-exclusive tracking protection forever. Regulators are also not going to be concerned that Firefox makes certain business models harder because it is insignificant.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#432

Post by marcosdumay »

noisy_boy wrote: post #405
defulmere wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for providing these instructions. My usual way to get to some setting in Firefox is to use the search box but it seems that Mozilla is actively hiding this one by excluding it from search, ie if you type "advertising" into the settings search box then there are no results.

That is because "Allow web sites to perform privacy-preserving ad measurement" doesn't have the word "advertising" in it. Granted the current phrasing a bit awkward and may have a certain degree of deliberateness behind it.

IMO, almost all of the Firefox preferences are phrased awkwardly.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#433

Post by Klonoar »

account42 wrote: post #427
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

Yes, Mozilla should not be experimenting on users without explicit consent. Have things really gotten so bad that this is incomprehensible?

I have already noted in my other comments that I think the desire for opt-in and/or way more notice with how to opt out is a very reasonable take, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

There's no need to imply that people don't comprehend things here. ;P

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#434

Post by Klonoar »

closewith wrote: post #384
Klonoar wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re certainly welcome to read it however you’d like. OP specifically said “make the setting do nothing while still collecting the data”. I don’t know about you, but a setting that acts like that would be akin to lying. The comment chain is pretty clear here IMO.

> OP specifically said “make the setting do nothing while still collecting the data”. I don’t know about you, but a setting that acts like that would be akin to lying. Well, that is what Firefox did here. They created a new feature, defaulted it to on, in direct contradiction to user choices. We know this because this Web Site Advertising feature defaults to on even where the user has the strictest level of tracking…

> Well, that is what Firefox did here.

No, let's be very clear here: what Mozilla/Firefox did here was default users in to a setting without good notice on how to opt out.

This is different from what was said in this thread, which is making the setting do nothing while still collecting the data. If you disable the setting/opt out, then the data isn't being collected.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#435

Post by CalRobert »

xk_id wrote: post #374
CalRobert wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will begrudgingly admit he has a point here. In a few years I imagine almost all sites will refuse to serve anything without WEI, and the "open" web will be the preserve of a few hobbyists. Annoyingly you'll still need to use a compromised browser (or worse, app) to do anything with your bank, etc.

> the "open" web will be the preserve of a few hobbyists. And maybe that will be the Web healing. If all the value extraction moves elsewhere, we might finally have a sane web of hypertext documents again.

Maybe, but I suspect it will be more like trying to access Usenet now.

I dunno. Considering the balkanization of the web maybe I should get in to ham radio or something.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#436

Post by account42 »

hobs wrote: post #399
closewith wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the worst part of the funding equation is that had Mozilla stayed on mission and invested it's Google fees wisely, Firefox development could have been indefinitely funded. Instead, we have had Mozilla sprawling in numerous directions secondary to the browser and failing in nearly all of them.

That is the problem, people want to run a modern corporation with its tentacles always reaching and growing instead of focusing on a core business proposition that they can win at. If you dont grow at double digit percentages year of year, are you even trying?

Mozilla Corporation was a mistake.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#437

Post by CalRobert »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #105
lopis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this line is very important: > First, in the absence of alternatives, there are enormous economic incentives for advertisers to try to bypass these countermeasures, leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win. It's very likely that this arms race will lead to DRM in web publications and video feeds (which Google is already experimenting with).

Which will lead to counter moves by alterative browsers and websites and Google risking the loss of browser market share. If you think this is unthinkable, just look back at Microsoft's dominance of the browser market twenty years ago. Exactly like Google is doing they were pushing through all sorts of user hostile stuff via internet explorer. Before Chrome came along, Firefox was one of the few holdouts against them…

How will an alternative browser get people to use it when major sites all make it impossible to use a non-Chromium browser?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#438

Post by Klonoar »

Karunamon wrote: post #356
Klonoar wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it was a credible idea, how exactly do you think that Firefox - the browser that the minute anything changes, the internet blows up over - would significantly alter their product in a way to differentiate themselves from Chrome? This isn’t even getting into base level stuff like available engineering resources, or the scenarios where the other vendors often control or have deals to give them favorable distrib…

For one, not throwing out their only differentiated advantage versus Chrome. For two, not taking the option that removes user control and customization whenever there is an option to do so. They could have been the privacy-focused browser, but it is still full of crap like this and various bits of undisclosed telemetry. There would be value in being the only browser to actually stop when users tell them no. But they…

> They could have been the privacy-focused browser

I don't see how trying to find a privacy-preserving way of dealing with the ad conundrum makes them not a privacy-focused browser/company.

You'd need to otherwise cite something re: undisclosed telemetry, considering the project is open source... so I'm not sure how exactly it'd be undisclosed.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#439

Post by nerdponx »

Kalium wrote: post #323
nerdponx wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one single piece of software I will post a recurring fee for, it's a web browser. Look at Kagi and Orion for example (I pay for both). It's like email. You need to get people over the mental hump. But then if you offer a good product, buyers will be happy they got over it.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/donate/ Here you go! Insert credit card here.

I donate to them as well, but donating broadly to the Mozilla foundation isn't the same as selling the web browser in exchange for money.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#440

Post by stebalien »

MrAlex94 wrote: post #274
stebalien wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those docs look out of date and appear to be designed for "app" ecosystems. The latest proposal from Mozilla is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QMHkAQ4JiuJkNcyGjAkOikPK... And I'm now quite sure this system is insecure. Fundamentally, either: 1. There is some magical sybil protection: An attacker can only spend their own privacy budget without affecting the rest of the system. 2. The system can be saturated: An a…

I assume it’s the MPC part that would need the Sybil protection? Also, another assumption, but it’s that doc still builds upon the W3C proposal - would it not be worth raising as an issue in the repo? Seems to still be active.

It's all other parties, actually. I'm assuming Mozilla and friends are trusted and that the cryptography is perfect.

I've filed an issue at https://github.com/patcg-individual-drafts/ipa/issues/90 but I'm still not sure if that's the right repo.

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