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US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

reuters.com

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Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#431

Post by jrm4 »

seydor wrote: post #296
hirako2000 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offramp / onramp is necessary so long as we have two systems, we need a gate between the two, even if crypto had 10 times its current level of trading transactions, as in trading of good or services for crypto, there would still be a large imbalance where more income would be taking fiat in. Adoption is happening, surely less so or far slower in the developed nations like in the US, but is not contracting globall…

If bitcoin was valued, banks would create the onramps. The current, speculation -based exchanges are putting the cart before the horse

"Valued" is carrying a lot of weight there. Crypto's stated PURPOSE is to get around traditional banks; that banks don't like it doesn't actually equal "not valued."

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#432

Post by thot_experiment »

x86x87 wrote: post #404
thot_experiment wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deep learning actually provides something of value now, and the training is in service of seeing if maybe it could do better in the future. Crypto provides a way to part fools from their money, and a way to circumvent financial laws. Yes, I get that there's "value" to circumventing sanctions and whatnot, but that's the same sort of value as making people phone you to cancel a subscription or optimizing CTR on an ad o…

lol. value for whom? deep learning just serves the interests of the owners, the corporations and the 1%.

I've personally gotten a lot of value out of generative AI models and I run/train everything locally on 5 year old hardware. It's the literal opposite of the thing you said, we finally have AI that's incredibly accessible and open. Anyone with a half decent GPU can do interesting things with a 2gb blob of tensors.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#433

Post by davorak »

lmm wrote: post #401
arcticbull wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... which made a significant effort to stay on the right side of the rules and only allow crypto tokens that operated in ways that are closely analogous to e.g. frequent flier miles. They list ICOs by the fistful. I sorted alphabetically and only had to go as far as AAVE to find the first obviously-a-security. They really didn't try and stay on the right side of anything. Frequent flyer miles are generally consider…

> There's no investment of money (they're a rebate on a purchase) Seems pretty dubious when there are well-documented cases of the miles being worth a lot more than the purchase (from the famous pudding guy onwards). Hell, mine explicitly advertises the option to "buy miles". > there's no common enterprise, there's no expectation of profit derived from the efforts of others Miles become more or less valuable dependin…

> Miles become more or less valuable depending on how well the airline is doing, exactly like how these tokens tend to go.

You can sell your token in this case right, but you can not sell the airline miles, not in the rule/tos of the miles program, at least that is my understanding.

>> Not to mention you don't own your frequent flyer miles, the airline program does.

>The whole point of Howey is that the details of the ownership structure don't matter, the overall economic effect is what does.

This does not seem the structure or details of ownership, it is flat out whether you own the miles or not.

If you have an example of token that acted more like an airline miles and there is an action against it or because of it I am interested to read more about that token and SEC reasoning.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#434

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

JohnFen wrote: post #422
DirkH wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple example is that if governments control finance you can't coordinate if the government is your opposition. If you start sharing resources as a means of coordinating, governments can always just compel the banks to shut down your account. Governments can't shut down crypto nearly as easily due to its decentralized nature.

I don't find this argument compelling at all, because I can't think of a historical example where fiat currency prevented coordination of antigovernment people. I also find it interesting that the pro-cryptocurrency argument centers around being antigovernment. So it's a political thing, not a practical thing. That automatically means cryptocurrency has no chance of mainstream adoption. People who don't agree with th…

This might be a political stance, but it's not exactly a radical one:

> Tech that mediates a relationship between two users should not give special powers to a third party.

It's not anti-government, it's anti-tampering. I'm most concerned with government tampering, but that's just me. I can exchange tokens with somebody who is concerned with alien tampering (something I don't worry about in the slightest) and we can all disagree about the "why" while still agreeing on the "what".

Maybe there's a subset of users that would prefer to have some authority they can appeal to when something goes wrong. That's fine, crypto isn't for them right now. But I suspect that those authorities will eventually abuse their position of trust. When it happens, I hope crypto is a nice enough place for them to turn to. As it stands there's a lot of work to do for that to be the case.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#435

Post by lmm »

davorak wrote: post #433
lmm wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no investment of money (they're a rebate on a purchase) Seems pretty dubious when there are well-documented cases of the miles being worth a lot more than the purchase (from the famous pudding guy onwards). Hell, mine explicitly advertises the option to "buy miles". > there's no common enterprise, there's no expectation of profit derived from the efforts of others Miles become more or less valuable dependin…

> Miles become more or less valuable depending on how well the airline is doing, exactly like how these tokens tend to go. You can sell your token in this case right, but you can not sell the airline miles, not in the rule/tos of the miles program, at least that is my understanding. >> Not to mention you don't own your frequent flyer miles, the airline program does. >The whole point of Howey is that the details of th…

> You can sell your token in this case right, but you can not sell the airline miles, not in the rule/tos of the miles program, at least that is my understanding.

There may notionally be a rule against it, but you certainly can - my airline will let you transfer them (for a fee in miles) and they certainly know or should know that buying and selling happens.

> This does not seem the structure or details of ownership, it is flat out whether you own the miles or not.

You're the beneficiary of them and have contractual rights to them, whether they're notionally held by some other party or not. If anything the idea that you don't own them makes the argument for it being a security stronger.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#436

Post by froggit »

davorak wrote: post #380
lmm wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think Gensler in official capacity should just dispense one-off soundbite determinations at the request of some clown grilling him? Because the whole point of the rule of law is that the law same law applies to any clown. If the head of securities law in the country can't tell you whether a basic thing is legal or not then why even bother having a congress and elections and any pretense that we live in s…

> Because the whole point of the rule of law is that the law same law applies to any clown. If the head of securities law in the country can't tell you whether a basic thing is legal or not then why even bother having a congress and elections and any pretense that we live in something other than a corrupt oligarchy? In the linked video the questioner is asking about about potential future cases/decisions and one reas…

>an agency does not want to telegraph their moves ahead of time, since that would give potential criminals a heads up that they are on a deadline and need to focus on cover up their crimes.

I think you might mean the "potential suspects" of the investigation.

"Criminal" as a basic categorization is binary in nature. All non-criminals are also "potential criminals." No criminals are "potential criminals" (they've already realized said potential).

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#437

Post by DirkH »

JohnFen wrote: post #422
DirkH wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple example is that if governments control finance you can't coordinate if the government is your opposition. If you start sharing resources as a means of coordinating, governments can always just compel the banks to shut down your account. Governments can't shut down crypto nearly as easily due to its decentralized nature.

I don't find this argument compelling at all, because I can't think of a historical example where fiat currency prevented coordination of antigovernment people. I also find it interesting that the pro-cryptocurrency argument centers around being antigovernment. So it's a political thing, not a practical thing. That automatically means cryptocurrency has no chance of mainstream adoption. People who don't agree with th…

OK, read this: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-im-less-than-infin...

Many clear examples of it being used to coordinate in opposition to fiat because the governments can't be trusted. And it's working far as I can tell. We just don't hear about it in the first world because our culture is so apathetic about anything happening in poverty oppressed nations.

Worth adding I'm not pro-crypto or anti-government. For transparency I have less than $10 grand in crypto which is no big deal for me to lose overnight. I think there is a good enough case to invest but not enough to make it large part of my portfolio. I don't believe the hype but also think throwing it out with the bathwater is likewise unnecessarily absolutist.

"People who don't agree with the politics of it will avoid it because they don't want to be associated with those politics"

Tell that from the majority of crypto users who reside in the third world and derive actual value from it. They are not politically homogenous (leftists and rightists use crypto on the third world) and most probably don't care much for decentralization as a means of political action. They just want something that works and is less corrupt than the incumbent system.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#438

Post by Breza »

chrisco255 wrote: post #392
jcranmer wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEC isn't suing Coinbase over Bitcoin. They're suing under two things: 1. Unregistered exchange for several tokens the SEC believes are securities: > This includes, but is not limited to, the units of each of the crypto asset securities further described below—with trading symbols SOL, ADA, MATIC, FIL, SAND, AXS, CHZ, FLOW, ICP, NEAR, VGX, DASH, and NEXO—(the “Crypto Asset Securities”). 2. Unregistered sale of securi…

The SEC provides NO guidance on what is or isn't a security. We have the Howey test to go off of. There is no way to register, no legal way to achieve anything that should be legal in a democratic capitalist society. You just have the threat of an SEC lawsuit on nebulous terms. It's completely fucked up. Another incredibly important point is the $1 million net worth and $200k income based test for becoming an "accred…

Sounds like you're advocating for Matt Levine's "Certificate of Dumb Investment" proposal. The fact that so many retail investors have been scammed by crypto gives support to the current regime, but I think there's something to Levine's idea.

https://archive.is/ggCjN

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#439

Post by Breza »

testfoobar wrote: post #390
jcranmer wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEC isn't suing Coinbase over Bitcoin. They're suing under two things: 1. Unregistered exchange for several tokens the SEC believes are securities: > This includes, but is not limited to, the units of each of the crypto asset securities further described below—with trading symbols SOL, ADA, MATIC, FIL, SAND, AXS, CHZ, FLOW, ICP, NEAR, VGX, DASH, and NEXO—(the “Crypto Asset Securities”). 2. Unregistered sale of securi…

What is a plausible range of outcomes for Coinbase here?

Years of litigation. Some people think they're hoping for Congress to intervene and moot the case.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#440

Post by Breza »

acdha wrote: post #373
whimsicalism wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's more a case that anyone who was involved in crypto early, and who has actually taken the time to understand the technology, has realised about a decade ago that crypto currencies are mostly useless. I don't know what it is about crypto that makes HN commentators want to make the most ridiculous, put-downy statements without evidence to back it up. Crypto is not mostly useless, it is just that people do…

> I don't know what it is about crypto that makes HN commentators want to make the most ridiculous, put-downy statements without evidence to back it up. HN has many people who understand how technology work and a smaller but still large number of people who understand economics. Cryptocurrency has a few people like that but also a ton of get-rich-quick types who think their best work is making random claims until som…

What an elegant description! I completely agree with you. Back in 2013, I looked at the massive number of financial middlemen on Wall Street and thought Bitcoin (or a future blockchain) could help lubricate the system. It took a few years for me to realize that blockchains are fundamentally flawed and cannot compete at scale with other technologies.
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