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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#431

Post by _gabe_ »

zamfi wrote: post #397
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture , though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means…

I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences.

You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to experience the trendy culture. It is pervasive everywhere.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#432

Post by rootusrootus »

Dig1t wrote: post #390
undersuit wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is ridiculous, LGBTQ is a minority. Trads are part of a waning majority. All evidence points towards LGBTQ always existing but just becoming more open. Trads being Counter Culture? That's the same double speak that gets us Citizens United and Right to Work. Where did these trads get their radically traditional values? From the majority.

>LGBTQ is a minority I mean yes, physically they are a minority. Culturally, they are incredibly mainstream. There are examples everywhere. There are tons of big movies and TV shows featuring gay people coming out. _Every_ company changes their logo during pride month. Look at the Apple Watch or iPhone, they come preloaded with Pride wallpapers and watch faces, they produce pride bands for the watch, which sell very…

That is an interesting point. What do you do when your minority position goes mainstream? When so much of your identity is based on assumed oppression, what does it look like when that oppression vanishes? Do you oppress those who oppressed you in the past in retaliation?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#433

Post by BurningFrog »

standardUser wrote: post #376
goodSteveramos wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

In an equal society the majority population will have the majority of most things.

To people even know that the US ethnic group with highest average income is Indian Americans?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#434

Post by OkayPhysicist »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #53
stcroixx wrote: post #40

Feels that way. Inside metro areas in the US there is very little difference of opinion on most issues. It was not always this way. People seems mostly content to consume content and ‘raise awareness’ online, and repeat.

You can't have non-standard opinions anymore. All opinions are now politics. If I say I like guns people instantly categorize me as Right-Wing-Nut or Alt-Right-Nut. If you express any kind of differing opinion publicly you will be associated with everything and anything the person hates. There are differing opinions, but those need to be kept private for fear of retaliation.

The people jumping to conclusions about your politics due to your views on guns are just playing the odds. There are a lot more conservatives defending gun rights than there are moderate democrats doing so, and there are a lot more of those than there are far-left people (like myself).

Basically, if someone says they support gun control, it's a very safe bet they're in the center-right political band that the Democrats cater to. If someone opposes gun control, while there's a chance they're a " “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary” -Marx "--type socialist, by sheer numbers it's far more likely they're supportive of the conservative regime.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#435

Post by goodSteveramos »

standardUser wrote: post #376
goodSteveramos wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

But they explicitly don’t wield that power as a group and attack people who suggest that they do. Powerful white men are all liberals who defer to the group interests of minorities and attack the group interest of the majority.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#436

Post by dsfyu404ed »

standardUser wrote: post #376
goodSteveramos wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

>If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups?

Because there is no one majority group. The only way you get a majority group is by drawing dumb lines around non-adjacent cultural groups because they happen to be of the same economic means or vote the same way.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#437

Post by burkaman »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #334
standardUser wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that it's an unpopular position, it's that the argument is flawed and the point you're trying to make falls flat. First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted…

> First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. In fact, I do lump them onto one group. Many subgroups inside a group. You know who I am referring to when I say queer culture. The group exists, it isn't false. Colors keep getting added to the flag. Rather than engage with reality you prefer to have useless rhetorical debates. Let's move past that. >Secon…

I'm pretty sure the word counterculture was literally invented to describe hippies in the 60s.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#438

Post by asveikau »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #265
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media…

It might get downvotes because you've just said it in a very ridiculous way that indicates you're angry about it.

I think there's a valid point lurking there, but you botched it. Surely you appreciate that multiple things can be true at the same time, and there are numerous ways that white men have advantages still.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#439

Post by bitwize »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #331
throwaway894345 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the entire establishment is seeking to ally itself with your movement/culture/etc then that’s a strong indicator that your movement isn’t counter-culture or otherwise subversive. They don’t have to become True Believers IMHO. And FWIW, lots of big companies have DEI departments that preach this stuff internally and market it externally (my wife is a marketing consultant with these big companies and they eat this s…

When Coca-Cola embraced the flower children with its ads in the late 1960s / early 1970s, did that mean that the US counterculture of that time had become "the culture"? Of course it did not. The flower children, the back-to-the-landers, the bikers, the free love communers all remained a tiny slice of the population (and a shrinking one by that time). What the late 60s/early 70s US counterculture had going for it was…

Thing about 60s/70s counterculture is, it didn't become the culture. Rather, its members were recruited by mainstream culture with the promise of wealth and the good life, to betray the values they espoused as youths.

Were Gramsci alive in the 80s, he would be like "See? See? This is EXACTLY what I was talking about!"

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#440

Post by mywittyname »

standardUser wrote: post #376
goodSteveramos wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

Cultural power is different from political and capital power. The influence of an musician, a political candidate, and a wealthy CEO can all be different in their scope, message, and the audience that they reach.

The WASPy power structure is still dominant in the corporate landscape and disproportionately high in the political one. But it has been losing ground on the cultural front for a while now.

There's a reason WASPy individuals complain about "the culture war" - it's the one they are losing. The slogan, "get woke, go broke" suggests they have started losing ground on the corporate front as well.

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