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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#431

Post by tethys »

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

> it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience

No one even made that claim. From the open letter:

> We definitely see the benefits of in-person collaboration; the kind of creative process that high bandwidth communication of being in the same room, not limited by technology, enables. But for many of us, this is not something we need every week, often not even every month, definitely not every day.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#432

Post by EricE »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #349
bckr wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might as well complain that you are missing out on being able to tell racist jokes with your same-race buddies, I sympathize with your point, but object strongly to this analogy on the grounds that being racist is a choice, while benefiting from body language is not a choice. It's also very offensive, but that is a secondary issue.

However, expecting (and demanding) that the other person can interpret your body language is also a choice. Consider you are the only person in the room who can't speak French. Everyone else can speak French and your native language. Would it be appropriate for them to drop into French whenever you ask a question, talk about it, and then answer in your language? No. Not only would you feel excluded, but you'd also be…

>However, expecting (and demanding) that the other person can interpret your body language is also a choice.

It's not a choice, it's respecting millions of years of social evolution. You are arguing that the way peoples brains are wired should be ignored to accommodate *you*. Good luck with that.

Also not sure where body language rates up there like someone with an actual physical disability or people just being assholes (your language example). Good luck filing some sort of complaint about being "forced" to interpret body language.

This feels a whole hell of a lot like "this is hard and I don't want to learn how to do it so I'll make up some syndrom to excuse it". Bah.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#433

Post by Grustaf »

danaris wrote: post #420
spullara wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

There is no possible way for you—or any of us, at this present moment—to know just how those tradeoffs and the shape of work will be changed over the next few decades by this pandemic, its aftershocks, and the new understanding we have all gained of just what is really possible with remote work. The idea that because you've been working for a decade or two and know how things were before the pandemic, these poor, dum…

They should just accept that they voluntarily joined a company that has always been very skewed towards in office work.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#434

Post by engineeringwoke »

dleslie wrote: post #399
EricE wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone understands or can engage in body language. Well you sure as hell aren't going to get better at it by throwing up your hands and declaring it just isn't for you. I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt. I'm very extroverted at work - because it's necessary. Yup, I pay a price - it's exhausting and I need time to…

... How are those who are physically incapable of engaging in normal body language, due to any number of permanent physical conditions, going to simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do it? They're not.

This isn't the point the OP was trying to make and you know that. Lesson one: don't assume the worst about people and don't make hyperbolic arguments in order to be "right". You might have more in-person success that way.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#435

Post by jdeibele »

unethical_ban wrote: post #287
sam0x17 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unapologetically, yes, and I'd take it a step further. Often the online version is more fun and more interactive than a bunch of people uncomfortably thrust into the same room. There are things people suddenly become comfortable saying and doing that they wouldn't normally say or do in person. If you've grown up with gamer friends you know exactly what I'm talking about -- seeing someone's silly avatar light up when…

> I talked with my nephew about this, since I noticed he and his friends never really have sleepovers and such like our generation did, and he cited this very reason. His friends are more fun to be around in a Discord call than in person. To each their own, I suppose, but I find this unhealthy. I would encourage my child to be interactive in person, not to hide behind the computer. I say this as a WFH IT employee who…

One of the things that's different about modern videogames is that it's better to be at home with your own Xbox or PlayStation or PC if you want to play with your friends.

We have 4 Wii controllers because when the kids were younger they could play with friends and the games didn't take a lot of explaining.

Going further back, you needed an opponent, probably because the systems were doing all they could to keep track of the action and couldn't generate an opponent, too.

A couple of times my son has had a friend bring an Xbox and monitor over to play in the same room at the same time. Given that most Xbox's are connected to big (and fragile) TVs, a "LAN party" would be quite a feat.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#436

Post by blub »

danaris wrote: post #423
blub wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social anxiety is as much of a mental illness as the fear leaving a bad impression on a date, fear of spiders or fear of doing poorly at an interview and enjoys the same kinds of legal protections. Which is none.

...You do know that social anxiety disorder is a genuine and recognized mental illness, right? Or are you just one of those people who thinks that all mental illness is just a lack of sufficient gumption?

SAD is not social anxiety, please pay attention to what you’re replying to.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#437

Post by dleslie »

fartcannon wrote: post #412
EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

A lot of tech savvy younger folks are perfectly capable of making relationships entirely online. I'm not even young, and I've done it myself. 25 years ago, I made several friends on Yahoo Chat! who I have never seen in real life but speak with regularly. Many more over the years via builtin boards. These days discord exists and it's a primary social source for a number of kids. These kids could enter a fully WFH work…

This is spot-on.

Nearly all of our younger hires have their social networks _entirely online_, and most of our older employees are in a similar situation albeit with a few token IRL friends.

That said, I work in game development and I suspect that causes some selection bias.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#438

Post by dleslie »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #364
maccard wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a remote work advocate. > Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? Of course it's not an exact equivalent, but it doesn't need to be. Anecdotally speaking, the number of whiteboard meetings I had that I wanted to have were about 1 per year. Remote workers use tools like Notion, Miro, Jetbrains Code With me which have many/more of th…

> Honestly in a business setting with "trusted" coworkers, less so. I tend to take what my colleagues say at face value. That's... not all that body language conveys? Body language helps with basic things like "Oh, Amy is trying to break in and is struggling to make her point", or "Hmm, Doug looks like he's concerned about something, I should ask him his opinion". Digital A/V communication tools also bring with them…

It sounds like your meetings need more structure.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#439

Post by tedivm »

spullara wrote: post #394
lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind.

I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know what it'll do to their career is about as out of date as the resume advice above.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#440

Post by dleslie »

engineeringwoke wrote: post #434
dleslie wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... How are those who are physically incapable of engaging in normal body language, due to any number of permanent physical conditions, going to simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do it? They're not.

This isn't the point the OP was trying to make and you know that. Lesson one: don't assume the worst about people and don't make hyperbolic arguments in order to be "right". You might have more in-person success that way.

The point they were making was ignoring one of the groups of people that I mentioned, because in order to make their point they _had_ to ignore that class of individual.

> > I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt.

> > There are tons of things I can do now that I couldn't do before. Many of them are unpleasant. But they are necessary and without many of them I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today. Good luck with waiting for the world to adapt to you.

Some people _simply cannot adapt_. It is not a possibility.

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