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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#431

Post by wruza »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #403
bdougherty wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really curious to hear about specific examples of some of these points. Specifically: > The abstraction leaks and when it does, it requires a good mental model of Svelte's magic. Maybe because I have familiarized myself with how Svelte works I haven't noticed anything like that. > Things that are easy in React at runtime turn out to be surprisingly difficult in Svelte I suspect this is from trying to use React p…

Is it surprising that two-way data binding is a source of bugs? We learned that lesson from Angular, and it influenced React’s preference for one-way dataflow.

What do you mean by two-way and one-way exactly? (Asking it because web sometimes has a different history for terms.)

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#432

Post by tnzk »

ramraj07 wrote: post #423
kevinak wrote: post #115

This is such amazing news! Betting on Svelte was the best thing ever for both my career and sanity. I'm now heavily involved in the Svelte community and next Saturday we'll be hosting our fourth conference solely dedicated to Svelte. If you're interested in checking it out the URL is here, it's free and will be streamed on YouTube: https://sveltesummit.com There are also two watch parties that will be hosted in New Y…

Genuinely curious, what’s there to do about for an entire conference about a single library? For someone from academia, where conferences typically span an entire field of research, this seems extremely niche and quite boring after a bit..

Meetup with people who share an interest itself fun?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#433

Post by cageface »

lucasyvas wrote: post #413
dissent wrote: post #355

I have recently joined a team that had invested in Svelte. I had previous experience in Angular and React. I was happy with React, but I decided to drink the koolaid and go all-in and do my best with Svelte. 6 months later, we're moving to React. It is partly because our Svelte code was messy enough to warrant a rewrite, and partly because we wanted to leverage the React ecosystem in that rewrite. It was also partly…

I've not used any Svelte significantly yet, so your points may stand. I have, however, written React for years. If anything in Svelte is more confusing to juniors than how useEffect works, especially in conjunction with unstable references, I would be literally amazed. useEffect is a loaded automatic pointed at your face if you don't fully understand it. It is truly a terrible API due to how intimately you have to un…

useEffect makes easy things easy and hard things very hard indeed.

After building a few non trivial apps in React with hooks I'm convinced that what you really need for that model to work smoothly is a new language that tracks things like hook dependencies for you.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#434

Post by cutler »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

It sounds like you'd be better off with something like Ruby's Hotwire/Stimulus, ASP.Net Core/Blazor or Elixir/Phoenix Live View.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#435

Post by cutler »

sergiotapia wrote: post #282
wishinghand wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false truth that anyone has to learn yet another one of these. Even Angular 1 and Backbone.js are still in production.

So is Joomla - yet I wouldn't recommend people learn it today. Might as well learn COBOL and Zend Framework too.

Ah, Zend - the only framework to out-boilerplate Spring MVC.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#436

Post by for1nner »

benmccann wrote: post #107
tekkk wrote: post #29

Wow, this should be great news for Svelte and SvelteKit! Hopefully with Vercel's backing these projects will fly off. Having worked with React for about 5 years (with a project in Vue in-between) and now having dabbled with Svelte, there is just something more appealing working with less higher-level abstractions. Sure with large apps React does have its benefits and its ecosystem is larger by a good amount. But ther…

> Fixing dev server errors is a little distracting at times You will be very pleased with the upcoming release of Vite 2.7! It's by far the most impactful release of Vite thus far for SvelteKit. All the major known issues we've been tracking have been addressed in the latest Vite 2.7 beta (assuming that one of the PRs we're still working out the kinks of doesn't get rolled back, but either way it'll be a huge improve…

Bless you.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#437

Post by cutler »

danny_taco wrote: post #316
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

I completely agree with you, and I've yet to see a compelling argument against this. I've been doing this since the rise of the SPA, all the way from vanilla, jQuery, Backbone, Angular 1.0, Ember and React and after reading your comment all I can think of is "great, we're going back to handlebars templating again". There is no net-gain in re-inventing the wheel. It just becomes yet another thing to master to stay rel…

I think the pendulum may be swinging back with options like Rails/Hotwire, ASP.Net Core/Blazor and Elixir/Phoenix Live View. Let's hope so.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#438

Post by TranquilMarmot »

francislavoie wrote: post #430
phist_mcgee wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it's terrible?

Nothing about its usage implies what it actually does. It's about API affordances. You can't simply just read the code as someone inexperienced with React and say "oh, I know what this does". Returning a closure as the result of another closure has no inherent meaning as to when that closure would be called, because there's no "name" for that functionality. And don't even get me started about the dependencies array,…

If I hadn't been using React for many years before they introduced useEffect and various other hooks, they would have all been incredibly confusing. They still are really confusing when used in "clever" ways, especially with developers being allergic to writing comments. Even something as simple as `// this will do X when the component unmounts` make reading usages of useEffect 10x easier (vs. having to remember what happens when you return a function)

Sometimes I do miss the simplicity of componentDidMount... I guess you can always still write class-based components. Too bad they're not in vogue anymore! Feels like every library is hooks-based these days.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#439

Post by toastercat »

jeswin wrote: post #408
toastercat wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subjective indeed. If the goal is to leverage the full expressiveness of JavaScript, you could just alias React.createElement to something like `h`. Or use something like https://github.com/caderek/react-plain

Yeah, but that's harder in practice. You often copy html snippets into your code, for example from tailwind or bootstrap samples. This is easier in JSX syntax; you'd just need to copy and fix up some attribute names.

> You often copy html snippets into your code, for example from tailwind or bootstrap samples. This is easier in JSX syntax; you'd just need to copy and fix up some attribute names.

I literally never do this, but I suppose there are people who use React/JSX as a glorified templating library. Even then I probably wouldn't do this and rather use a proper templating library where HTML is valid.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#440

Post by bigyikes »

cageface wrote: post #433
lucasyvas wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not used any Svelte significantly yet, so your points may stand. I have, however, written React for years. If anything in Svelte is more confusing to juniors than how useEffect works, especially in conjunction with unstable references, I would be literally amazed. useEffect is a loaded automatic pointed at your face if you don't fully understand it. It is truly a terrible API due to how intimately you have to un…

useEffect makes easy things easy and hard things very hard indeed. After building a few non trivial apps in React with hooks I'm convinced that what you really need for that model to work smoothly is a new language that tracks things like hook dependencies for you.

Eslint will ensure all dependencies are listed in the array. Is there something more you’re wishing for?
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