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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#431

Post by tw04 »

MandolinOrange wrote: post #405
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

Many medical professionals have been decrying the lack of transparency throughout the entire process and that still hasn't changed: "FDA set to grant full approval to Pfizer vaccine without public discussion of data": https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2086?s=09 Expecting the public to have confidence in these vaccines is demanding a level of subservience and blind faith that most reasonable people are unwilling to…

The link you posted cites and links the FDA meeting they had for public discussion. It was almost a 9 hour meeting (which they have a youtube recording of), to say that wasn't transparent seems... inaccurate. Did you not read through the citations from your own source?

>Interested persons may present data, information, or views, orally or in writing, on issues pending before the committee.

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-c...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#432

Post by lp0_on_fire »

mlang23 wrote: post #334
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. Disclaimer: I am fully vax, so not the target audience. The subject is worth discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine#History RNA vaccines have decades of failures. Following the normal drug approval processes 100% of RNA attempts have failed. The only reason we got the vaccine today…

What I find most sad about your post is that you had to open by stating your vaccination status. So we effectively reached a point where you are only allowed to be critical of vaccination after you got yourself a shot. This is so weird and frightening, I dont know what to say. Things said and claimed by all sides in the past 1 1/2 years have made me really stop believe in humanity. It feels like a bad dream or a stra…

> When did we start to produce people like this?

They've always been there but Covid and the ensuing hysteria has brought the authoritarians out of the woodwork. They're loud and proud right now.

> Did I really miss this wave of right-wing-minded people hiding on the left side?

Authoritarianism isn't unique to one side of the aisle and this comment speaks to the decades of FUD being spread by those on the left that anyone who isn't lockstep with the progressive agenda is "literally hitler".

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#433

Post by dionian »

acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

I think a lot of people are holding out for scientific reasons: 1. vaccines require continuous boosters, not "fully" effective compared to natural antibodies 2. Those who have pre-existing natural antibodies don't need to synthesize more 3. Those with very low risk of COVID-19 such as those under 50 with no other pre-existing conditions, or especially the young, who are more at risk of dying from the Flu than COVID

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#434

Post by CogitoCogito »

mlang23 wrote: post #382
bananabiscuit wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the intent of people asking me why I don’t want to vaccinate is almost never to really understand my perspective and my reasons for not doing so. Instead the goal is usually to find the first statement I make that they feel they can easily attack (ignoring all other reasons I state), and then attack that statement and conclude that I am a conspiracy theorist antivaxxer.

I experience similar things. Frankly, I think the media has put so many weird labels on people who choose not to vaccinate that after the lockdowns, the vaxed people found a sort of sensation in talking to non-vaxed people. It felt like in a zoo. "So, you are not vaxed because you are afraid of the pain?" The actual reason for most, which is "I have decided to risk an infection to let my immune system do its job" is…

> The actual reason for most, which is "I have decided to risk an infection to let my immune system do its job"

To be fair, this is what the vaccines do.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#435

Post by ghaff »

tw04 wrote: post #395
acdha wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No doubt this will be the case for some. So, you've found a logical flaw in people's stated reasons for not wanting a vaccine. How does that help anything? In these kinds of debates, the actual goals or beliefs of both sides often differ from what they say. This line of thought leads to the sentence immediately following the one you quoted: if there are a large percentage of people who were hesitant due to sincere…

>Some of those are devout anti-vaccination activists but I believe that they are still a relatively small fraction of the hesitant. When not being vaccinated comes with a direct personal cost we'll see how sincere those beliefs are. I have a friend in this group. There was no logical reason to not get vaccinated, her parents just kept regurgitating all the blatantly false conspiracy theories they were reading on the…

I think you can also be glad that someone changed their mind and got vaccinated, however reluctantly, and simultaneously be uncomfortable with that sort of coercion.

Telling someone you'll fire them if they don't get a shot isn't quite holding them down and jabbing them but it's not really a free personal choice either. Many people aren't in a position to just hop down the street into a new job.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#436

Post by dionian »

hunterb123 wrote: post #98
felipellrocha wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge odds. People were anti-vaxxers before, and were just looking for an excuse to justify their position. Goal post moving is a thing to be expected nowadays

Question long-term effects of mRNA vaccines, anti-vaxxer! Question certain "green" program spending, climate-denier! Question voting or border security, racist! Question certain political figures, conspiracy theorist! Issues are much more nuanced than a one word dismissal used to dehumanize the dissenter. You can be hesitant of these new mRNA vaccines but for classic vaccines that use dead / weakened viruses, that do…

The more they mandate it instead of convince me with science, the more I am skeptical.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#437

Post by kazinator »

Pyramus wrote: post #263
mlang23 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this technique change anything? You are still assuming the supposed superior position, since you imply that the stance of your discussion partner is wrong and needs to be changed. Dont you see how patronising this is?

I think you misunderstood the technique, e.g. you can simply apply it to yourself. If there is nothing that will change one's position, it's not worth engaging because the outcome is set.

If a position is held based on rational evidence, then there is always something which can change it: a flaw being found in the evidence.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#438

Post by MildlySerious »

supportlocal4h wrote: post #325
ceejayoz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't we lockdown our highways when there are 600,000 deaths from auto accidents? We mandate seat belts, air bags, guard rails, road construction standards, backup cameras, crumple zones, and quite a few other elements involved in road safety. Per-mile road deaths have been on a precipitous decline for decades due to ongoing increases in safety mandates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate…

So 35000 deaths per year is ok? 100000? 250000? 1.5 million (diabetes)? 500000 hospitalizations (influenza)? What deserves such incredible non-stop daily attention? Answer: whatever makes the most money.

> What deserves such incredible non-stop daily attention? Answer: whatever makes the most money.

I think initially the correct answer in the case of COVID-19 was more specifically: whatever endangers existing profits most. The whole situation spelled uncertainty at the beginning, and that's bad for everything where "business as usual" is highly profitable. The rushed response and large scale mismanagement this caused is what brought into existence the "never let a crisis go to waste" part that came after.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#439

Post by Grim-444 »

albatross13 wrote: post #430
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

I'm already triple vaxxed (booster), but there are plenty of aspects to this that help drive people's fear: - Phase 3 trials for Pfizer not complete until May 2023: ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 ) - Control group(s) were given vaccines after 14 days: ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... ) - Pfizer generates 1.9bn in revenue off of 100m doses, just in the USA alone, cre…

I know very little about this, but could someone give a good explanation on how is a drug officially approved for mass use when the manufacturer of the drug still hasn't finished their testing?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#440

Post by wombatpm »

dham wrote: post #290
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. Disclaimer: I am fully vax, so not the target audience. The subject is worth discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine#History RNA vaccines have decades of failures. Following the normal drug approval processes 100% of RNA attempts have failed. The only reason we got the vaccine today…

I took J&J and I agree with you. Why can't be people be scared. I don't judge anyone who won't take the vaccine. I will say that we should have focused more on treatments instead of vaccines and then had a more traditional vaccine built on proven technology. Then we could have gotten everyone protected at the same time, stopping the variants.

J&J and AZ are more traditional vaccines. People have been looking for treatments hence the HCQ and invermectin investigations. Look at how long it took them to make steroids a standard treatment option. We now have a variant that is more contagious (delta) I’m waiting for the variant that is more deadly.
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