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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#381

Post by icegreentea2 »

probablypower wrote: post #191
giantg2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...instead find a new reason not to get it." Or continue an existing reason: "Information is not yet available about potential long-term health outcomes."

As someone who has had both COVID (before vaccines were available) and a COVID vaccine, this reasoning seems frankly dumb as bricks. There is uncertainty about long-term effects of both. There is no uncertainty about the short-term effects of COVID, which are magnitudes worse than the short-term effects of a vaccine. COVID for me was a multi-week flu that scared the shit out of me because I didn't know how bad it wou…

Have you recovered from the mental fog/memory problems?

As a 30-odd year old knowledge worker (vaccinated), that's the thing that affects my personal risk assessment the most right now.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#382

Post by mlang23 »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #351
silicon2401 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of fragility is hostile to rational discussions. There's no patronisation to asking somebody a question about their beliefs; it's literally just a question. If somebody asked me that, I would take it as an opportunity to really explore my beliefs, and think about what conditions would cause me to change my beliefs. It has nothing to do with the other person or their beliefs. We shouldn't encourage this kind…

In my experience, the intent of people asking me why I don’t want to vaccinate is almost never to really understand my perspective and my reasons for not doing so. Instead the goal is usually to find the first statement I make that they feel they can easily attack (ignoring all other reasons I state), and then attack that statement and conclude that I am a conspiracy theorist antivaxxer.

I experience similar things. Frankly, I think the media has put so many weird labels on people who choose not to vaccinate that after the lockdowns, the vaxed people found a sort of sensation in talking to non-vaxed people. It felt like in a zoo. "So, you are not vaxed because you are afraid of the pain?" The actual reason for most, which is "I have decided to risk an infection to let my immune system do its job" is never really talked about because I mostly end up terminating the conversation because it has this distinct derogatory tone from the ohter side.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#383

Post by zacharytelschow »

pornel wrote: post #273
thepasswordis wrote: post #200

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

Here's the deal: you don't have to take the vaccine, but promise to stay away from people, and not burden hospitals when you get covid. It's not your personal choice when it can harm other people (e.g. immunocompromised people who can't get the vaccine themselves, other people who need ICU beds).

Let's apply that logic to everything, then, and see how it works out. You're fat or obese and have health outcomes stemming from those choices? Enjoy your heart attack, fatty. You get injured doing something "non-essential?" Your mountain bike accident sounds like your problem. You're a smoker and get lung cancer? Sorry, no treatment is available for you.

You don't get to dictate the health choices of others. And if we're going down that road (which you seem to embrace) a vaccine against a disease with such a low death rate hardly seems a logical place to start. But that's presuming logic is the starting point, a conclusion lacking evidence.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#384

Post by rootusrootus »

pattrn wrote: post #282
input_sh wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may wanna look into Japan's cases and covid measures again. They got fucked over hard by the Olympics that about 80% of the population was against. 3x as many cases as their previous worst wave, despite travel being banned from pretty much everywhere and virtually nobody opposing masks.

It will be interesting to see if those cases result in many deaths. Typically when viruses mutate they become less deadly, so there's a chance these new cases won't have nearly as negative an outcome as the previous waves. The data is still coming in, but initial numbers look like a negligible amount of deaths compared to their historical numbers.

Evidence suggests Delta may actually be slightly more lethal, all else being equal. But all is not equal, a lot of the most vulnerable folks are either dead or vaccinated now.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#385

Post by 015a »

acdha wrote: post #196
peakaboo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right. People won't change their minds about it. But the question is, should they be allowed to control what goes inside their bodies? In my opinion, the answer is a huge YES OF COURSE.

The problem is that it’s not that simple because your choices significantly impact other people: I can’t choose whether or not to receive the viruses you spread, so I have an interest in you spreading far fewer of them. My 4 year old child can’t be vaccinated so he, along with many immune-compromised people or those with certain medical conditions, is dependent on other people getting vaccinated to sharply reduce spr…

Except, the current choice of vaccines appear to have issues offering broad sterilizing immunity. Vaccinated people are still "getting" COVID Delta, often with zero symptoms, but are still spreading it.

So they're not even all that good at providing the one thing companies may argue is necessary to go back-to-work; stopping spread. Similar with cruise lines and airplanes requiring it. Yes, the vaccines are very good at saving peoples' lives, but industry doesn't care about that, and it alone is not a good enough reason to mandate it.

You say everyone needs to get vaccinated so we can protect the people who can't get the vaccine or for whom it doesn't work. I have very bad news for you; the vaccine won't help. You can still get COVID, and you can still spread it to your four year old. I can still get it and spread it to my immunocompromised sister. It sucks. That's the reality we live in.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#386

Post by jstanley »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #351
silicon2401 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of fragility is hostile to rational discussions. There's no patronisation to asking somebody a question about their beliefs; it's literally just a question. If somebody asked me that, I would take it as an opportunity to really explore my beliefs, and think about what conditions would cause me to change my beliefs. It has nothing to do with the other person or their beliefs. We shouldn't encourage this kind…

In my experience, the intent of people asking me why I don’t want to vaccinate is almost never to really understand my perspective and my reasons for not doing so. Instead the goal is usually to find the first statement I make that they feel they can easily attack (ignoring all other reasons I state), and then attack that statement and conclude that I am a conspiracy theorist antivaxxer.

What would it take to change your mind?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#387

Post by yupper32 »

thepasswordis wrote: post #200

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

> the weird, Orwellian ways that the government talks about it, has turned me against the booster.

You desperately need to take a step back and look at yourself and how you evaluate things.

You decided to go against the booster because of your feelings, not because of science. You want government decisions to be guided by science, and yet you are very clearly anti-science with your decision making.

> To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year.

What vaccine? There wasn't a vaccine available until Dec 14th 2020.

Are you trying to say if Trump actually cut corners and made the vaccine available earlier than we should have, then people would be mad? Well... duh. The difference is that the left generally follows what the leaders in the scientific community have to say, not the POTUS. The scientific community would have been against cutting corners.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#388

Post by jayd16 »

thepasswordis wrote: post #316
orangegreen wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about you. It's about preventing other, more vulnerable people from getting sick. Living in a society means giving up some of your freedoms in exchange for security, and getting vaccinated as a way to help other people should be part of that exchange.

Why don't those people go get the vaccine like I did?

Well, for example, if you have an a suppressed auto-immune system from other medication, the vaccine is ineffective.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#389

Post by eddieroger »

walls wrote: post #190
peakaboo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right. People won't change their minds about it. But the question is, should they be allowed to control what goes inside their bodies? In my opinion, the answer is a huge YES OF COURSE.

Sure, and every institution should also be allowed to keep them out based on that decision.

Exactly right. You get to make a choice, but choices come with consequences. Don't want a vaccine? OK, but be prepared to be rejected from places that would prefer you have one.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#390

Post by zacharytelschow »

eganist wrote: post #2

My biggest concern now is around seeing those who hedged their willingness to get the vaccine on its approval instead find a new reason not to get it. So with that in mind, I'm much more keen on seeing how employers will decide on vaccination mandates now that at least one vaccine is fully approved. Any news yet on whether any more employers are likely implementing mandates (if they haven't already this morning) base…

"Clinical studies from Israel, the Cleveland Clinic, England and elsewhere have demonstrated beyond a doubt that natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 provides robust and durable protection against reinfection comparable to or better than that provided by the most effective vaccines." source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccine-mandate-natural-immunit...

(Referenced studies are linked in the article).

Why should people who already have antibodies take marginal unnecessary risk for no gain?

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