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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#431

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

> I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning

Worth noting the Sophia Antipolis arm design centre in France continues to exist. It works on some of the big A-class cores (The A75 for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A75).

Though whether arm would get involved in this endeavour is another question. They have a significant physical IP portfolio: https://www.arm.com/products/silicon-ip-physical and associated skillsets (I think at least some of this is UK based, not entirely sure how much) so would be a good partner to have and I suspect arm would like to see arm cores coming out as test designs rather than RISC-V cores. Of course in the wake of brexit potentially not a partnership the EU wants politically! UK government would spin it as UK company plays key part in major EU initiative with significant funding awarded. EU would spin it as EU brings in major global semiconductor company to new semiconductor initiative.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

> For instance creating a company that never makes money isn't a problem in the US thanks to a mix of this culture and bottomless VC money. Whereas that would be perceived as failure by family and friends in Europe. I guess that's related to the US dept culture too. Not having money but borrowing it for all kinds of things and with that stacking dept upon dept is quite normal in the US while over here at the continen…

Interestingly, in German the word for debt - “schuld” - is the same as the word for guilt.

Having lived in Germany for 7+ years, I noticed there’s a strong sentiment against owing money in general. Odd, considering the crazy high real-state prices these days.

People also seem to save a lot, and consume much less than in other western nations I’ve lived at, or visited.

This may be causing broad economic issues as the money is there, it’s just not moving around as much [1].

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50213411

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not the brilliant engineers you imagine are going to run it. I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! What the EU should do is earmark some of that money to be directly paid as engineering salaries. Of course they won't: that would reduce the piece of the pie of all the non-technical managers and bureaucrats!

> I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! Exactly. The salaries in EU are pitiful.

Global purchase power is a very limited and 100% american way to assess work compensation. In europe we don't care only about the number but about many other factors.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A relative is a middle manager in one of the biggest tech organizations in EU; only 60% of their huge organization is doing actual work and that 60% includes the management of the actual experts; the rest are "support functions" with very well paid positions for people appointed by the member states with strong political connections and no relevant skills vs. hired with interviews for the 60%. But even in the 60% the…

> This book contains three basic ideas. The first is an output-oriented approach to management. That is to say, we apply some of the principles and the discipline of the most output-oriented of endeavors—manufacturing—to other forms of business enterprise, including most emphatically the work of managers. Consider Intel, which is a true manufacturing and production company, making highly complex silicon chips as well…

What is described above is a close to 100% productive personnel, direct or indirect. Imagine on top of that you have 10% that "work" on wellness programs (on paper, no tangible output ever, maybe a link to a Youtube yoga channel), 25% doing marketing for an institution that is unique with no competitors and no need for publicity (imagine publishing adds for Europol, the European police force; what are they selling?), another 10% doing diversity programs (when skilled engineers are already scarce, you force quotas on various categories) and another 10% are hired just on paper and never appear to work.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#435
post #405
post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

Why do you think EU is behind in tech? As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the lithography machines used by all state of the art IC nodes is designed in Europe. It’s one of the most complex machines on the planet. Then there’s mega projects like LHC and ITER (international projects, but it’s not pure chance that they’re located in Europe) and Wendelstein 7-X. My pet example is Nordic Semiconductor, which has an…

Why people have this perception seems pretty clear to me. Just comparing Europe to the US:

The US has both the major desktop/laptop CPU designers, as well as both desktop/laptop GPU designers. Of the three major desktop/laptop OSes, two are American, and the last doesn't belong to any particular country, but the primary creator moved from Europe to the US permanently.

The two major smartphone OSes are made by American companies. Two biggest browsers, again, Americans. Maybe three, if you count Mozilla (though Samsung is probably around there as well).

Huge internet/software tech companies that consumers interact with? Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple are all American. Europe has no equivalent to these, all they can boast is a few smaller ones like Spotify, or business facing giants like SAP (equivalent to that in the US would probably be like Oracle or IBM).

While obviously Europe doesn't have a complete dearth of local software, in terms of major consumer hits, especially the kind that get play outside of the region they originated in -- not much of that going on.

Also, I work at Google Munich, and it's pretty telling how rare it is for people here to get 'poached' by other local tech companies. It happened to a few people I knew...to go to Lyft's Munich office. Other than that, I can't think of any. When it comes to enticing engineers, there just aren't any German tech companies that play in the same league as Google.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#437
post #426
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD ( http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/ ), where…

> At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD ( http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/ ), where "disposable income" ( http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=46 ) accounts for healthcare and government benefits. There's a catch, though: You have to live in the borderline failed state that is the USA. That's quite the drawback and just not worth it…

[deleted]

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is also one country, one culture, one language, 300 million people as an initial market and a continent. Each of these lower the barrier to entry. The last point point about being a continent is that I can ship across the USA for far less than I can ship from one side of the EU to the other. The USA has economies of scale that Europe still does not have.

> The USA has economies of scale that Europe still does not have. If anything Europe has larger economies of scale. EU population alone is 446 million and that's not including countries that chose not to be part of it.

Translating your product into 30 different languages is pretty expensive, as is finding local representatives who know their markets and can advertise efficiently. Americans are much more culturally alike to one another than they are willing to admit.

And from the standpoint of e-commerce, shipping charges across Europe are expensive compared to the US. We do not have any common, reasonably priced service similar to US Post. Sending a package to Spain will cost me more than twice as much than sending it within borders of my own country, and the delivery will take several days.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#439
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The last point point about being a continent is that I can ship across the USA for far less than I can ship from one side of the EU to the other. I sell on eBay and Amazon. We Americans have no idea how good we have it in terms of shipping options. I can ship via USPS a videogame that is, including the padded envelope, 4 oz or less in weight for ~$3 to anywhere in the US (even AK, HI, and PR and other territories).…

Regarding the expensive shipping in the EU point. That really depends on the country one is shipping from. Shipping from Germany is extremely cheap - even internationally (even cheaper than the rates you mentioned). But shipping the same thing the opposite direction can easily cost many multiples more.

This is an interesting asymmetry.

I was able to buy from German Amazon with a shipping charge around 4 Eur to Czechia. But a package from Czechia to Hamburg cost me 12 Eur.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#440

ITT bashing on EU without understanding it I believe the 17 signing nations are allowed to inject money into their own economy. Even if the goals are a bit unrealistic. EDIT The 2-3 years is when the funds are allocated. Not when the results are expected.

There is a missing bit of perapective: many EU startups rely on grants for bootstrapping because investors here are a lot more risk averse here. They commonly let folks get their startup to an MVP and become investable. The other factor is that they come in waves: there could be many grants for your startup for a few years, then government focus shifts and they dry up, then 5 years later they might come again Aquirin…

I won a grant for our company, roughly 600k, but it took nearly 2 years until the first money hit our bank accounts and the ongoing documentation effort is really slowing a lot of things down.

But it might be because it's Germany, you have to use your regional bank for the process and ours was horrible.

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