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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#431
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

The licensing arrangement is that the JDK is now completely free (rather than mixed free/paid as before). Oracle offers the same JDK under two different license -- one, commercial, for those who wish to buy support, and one free. That page you went to described the two options, and referred you to the free one: http://jdk.java.net/

The "free one" that Oracle refer people to doesn't even come with a Windows installer, nor does it have any useful installation instructions. It's (presumably) intentionally unusable to all but the most persistent and technically knowledgeable users.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#432
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

You simply need to download from https://adoptopenjdk.net/

This seems to be the correct answer - it appears to be the only way of getting a properly working install of OpenJDK for Windows that will actually be found by other apps - but it's a third-party build of OpenJDK backed by most of the major Java supporters except Oracle.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#433
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my fickle opinion of course not reflecting of market shifts. A couple of years ago I was a CTO of a midsized company which had a misfortune of building the main product on top of Oracle DB (decision was made before me). Oracle the database is great: performant, scalable. A bit pricey and complex to manage but that's acceptable for what it delivers. Oracle the company is absolutely horrible. I've never dealt w…

This is the most relevant comment for this article. I know a lot of companies who got bitten by license changes from Oracle like „You run one DB on your VMWare environment? Now you need to lic every cpu in this cluster although you just use one. Or you drop VMWare and use Oracle virtualization products, then you just have to pay for that one cpu“ My bet: Java lic not allowing you to use PostGres

>My bet: Java lic not allowing you to use PostGres

I've no love for Oracle, but the amount of uninformed comments here is scary.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#434
post #215
post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

JavaScript is practically stone age compared to Java. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation is a nightmare. Scaling is a nightmare. NPM is a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Java suffers from having some 20-year old codebases because it's been so popular for so long but I can open up a 2004 WebLogic project in Eclipse or InteeliJ and trace everything it's doing. And modern Java has added all the nice fea…

I am not very sensitive to all those issues, I find the JS/CSS/HTML web stack a bit antiquated (virtual DOM, LOL), but very usable.

But the build toolstack is a pure, unadulterated nightmare. I used to think Maven's XML orgies, archetypes and learning curve were bad, but diving into Webpack et al was a new dimension of horror. This time based on JSON, though.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#435
post #32
post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

OK, but Poland and Hungary are far from the only nations ignoring EU rules (though they might be the only ones ignoring certain particular rules).

Take for example the Italian government's decision to run a deficit higher than what is allowed under EU rules (2% per year if I recall correctly). The EU tried to put a brave face on it: they held negotiations with the Italian government and announced a compromise, but it was pretty obvious to people who follow EU politics that the EU had no effective means to enforce the rule on Italy.

And this cap on deficit spending by governments of member nations is no minor rule. Many had stated over the years since the introduction of the Euro that the rule is necessary for the single currency to work.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#436
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

You simply need to download from https://adoptopenjdk.net/

[deleted]

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#437
post #432
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You simply need to download from https://adoptopenjdk.net/

This seems to be the correct answer - it appears to be the only way of getting a properly working install of OpenJDK for Windows that will actually be found by other apps - but it's a third-party build of OpenJDK backed by most of the major Java supporters except Oracle.

It is not backed by Oracle because OpenJDK's developers, who are 90% Oracle employees, do not use this build and don't know how it's made (it doesn't just use the OpenJDK make files), but rather the "official" OpenJDK build at http://jdk.java.net/. Similarly, the "official" OpenJDK build for 8 and 11 is the Red Hat one here (hosted on Adopt, but not an Adopt build): https://adoptopenjdk.net/upstream

These are the only builds for which you can directly report OpenJDK bugs against. This is not because of some conspiracy, but merely because most organizations that provide JDK builds (like Amazon or Adopt) do not contribute much or at all to OpenJDK -- usually because they don't have the resources or the knowledge, and in some cases because they don't want to.

Because the responsibility of developing and maintaining OpenJDK -- in all builds -- mostly falls to Oracle developers, we can only "back" builds we actually know. If you find a bug in Adopt, you'll need to report it to someone who will first reproduce it on an official build and only then report it to OpenJDK, where, in all likelihood, an Oracle developer will address it. Other companies can back Adopt because they're not the ones who maintain the project, anyway, so they bear little or no responsibility. We're happy that OpenJDK is doing so well, but with limited resources, we can only focus on builds that are under our control.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#438
post #52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> even Javascript and Python are chipping away at Java's market share.

The GraalVM team is working to run a bunch of stuff all together on the JVM

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which instance are you referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto What I remember from history lessons in school agrees with Wikipedia's description, so I'll just quote: "Many historians hold that the liberum veto was a major cause of the deterioration of the Commonwealth political system, particularly in the 18th century, when foreign powers bribed Sejm members to paralyze its proceedings, and the Commonwealth's eventual destruction in th…

This was noted already at that time:

"To give a minority a negative upon the majority (which is always the case where more than a majority is requisite to a decision), is, in its tendency, to subject the sense of the greater number to that of the lesser. Congress, from the nonattendance of a few States, have been frequently in the situation of a Polish diet, where a single VOTE has been sufficient to put a stop to all their movements. A sixtieth part of the Union, which is about the proportion of Delaware and Rhode Island, has several times been able to oppose an entire bar to its operations. This is one of those refinements which, in practice, has an effect the reverse of what is expected from it in theory. The necessity of unanimity in public bodies, or of something approaching towards it, has been founded upon a supposition that it would contribute to security. But its real operation is to embarrass the administration, to destroy the energy of the government, and to substitute the pleasure, caprice, or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junto, to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority. In those emergencies of a nation, in which the goodness or badness, the weakness or strength of its government, is of the greatest importance, there is commonly a necessity for action. The public business must, in some way or other, go forward. If a pertinacious minority can control the opinion of a majority, respecting the best mode of conducting it, the majority, in order that something may be done, must conform to the views of the minority; and thus the sense of the smaller number will overrule that of the greater, and give a tone to the national proceedings. Hence, tedious delays; continual negotiation and intrigue; contemptible compromises of the public good. And yet, in such a system, it is even happy when such compromises can take place: for upon some occasions things will not admit of accommodation; and then the measures of government must be injuriously suspended, or fatally defeated. It is often, by the impracticability of obtaining the concurrence of the necessary number of votes, kept in a state of inaction. Its situation must always savor of weakness, sometimes border upon anarchy.

It is not difficult to discover, that a principle of this kind gives greater scope to foreign corruption, as well as to domestic faction, than that which permits the sense of the majority to decide; though the contrary of this has been presumed. The mistake has proceeded from not attending with due care to the mischiefs that may be occasioned by obstructing the progress of government at certain critical seasons. When the concurrence of a large number is required by the Constitution to the doing of any national act, we are apt to rest satisfied that all is safe, because nothing improper will be likely TO BE DONE, but we forget how much good may be prevented, and how much ill may be produced, by the power of hindering the doing what may be necessary, and of keeping affairs in the same unfavorable posture in which they may happen to stand at particular periods."

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#440
post #431
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The licensing arrangement is that the JDK is now completely free (rather than mixed free/paid as before). Oracle offers the same JDK under two different license -- one, commercial, for those who wish to buy support, and one free. That page you went to described the two options, and referred you to the free one: http://jdk.java.net/

The "free one" that Oracle refer people to doesn't even come with a Windows installer , nor does it have any useful installation instructions. It's (presumably) intentionally unusable to all but the most persistent and technically knowledgeable users.

First of all, the JDK doesn't need an installer. You can put the JDK wherever you like and just point JAVA_HOME to it. Second, the JDK is intended only for developers. We have discontinued the "consumer/desktop JRE", and it is now the recommended practice for developers to create their own embedded runtimes with jlink. We are also working on a tool that would allow developers to package their applications with native OS installers [1]. Third, nearly all OpenJDK contributors are Oracle developers and use those builds, and AFAIK few if any OpenJDK contributors use any other build than the Oracle or the Red Hat ones, and so if you want anyone to fix your bug, you need to report it against an "official" build. Fourth, I don't know why you put free in scare quotes. It is the most popular OpenJDK distribution and it is as free as all the others (because all OpenJDK distributions are released under the same OpenJDK license; they are all owned by Oracle, BTW). Finally, you should ask yourself why is the OpenJ9 JDK, which makes up for maybe 1% of their downloads, featured so prominently on Adopt? Well, the reason is that IBM is in the habit of finding promising community projects, throwing some money and people at them, and taking control. This is what happened with Harmony, what happened with Adopt, and my guess is -- though I have no knowledge of the situation -- that this is precisely what Oracle feared would happen with Jakarta. This may not be bad if IBM also contributed something to OpenJDK, but they don't [2]. They just take over community projects, and then take credit for work that's done by Oracle. IBM taking control over Adopt is also why they lost their TCK license. The TCK is licensed freely for OpenJDK builds but requires payment for non-OpenJDK builds. IBM used Adopt to run the TCK on the OpenJ9 JDK -- not an OpenJDK build -- which put the entire project in violation of the TCK terms. So this entire story should be viewed in this light, as well: we have a company doing nearly all the work an an open source project and other companies wishing to exploit that.

You need to realize that Oracle does over 90% of the work on OpenJDK, and that the Java ecosystem is so big that there are other very large corporations who want to make money off of Java, and so are very interested in painting a picture of a "non-cooperating" Oracle. But again, whether you use a build from Amazon or Adopt, those source code behind those builds is developed and maintained by Oracle developers. And I can also tell you that we beg companies that build distributions or make money off of Java to contribute more, but so far, they can't or won't. We're happy to see Google starting to contribute more, and, of course, we've been cooperating with Red Hat for a long time. But so far, Amazon and IBM contribute little if at all (but I will say again that some companies cooperate nicely with Oracle -- Red Hat, SAP, and now it seems like Google may be starting to do that as well).

[1]: https://jdk.java.net/jpackage/

[2]: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/building-jdk-11..., https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/the-arrival-of-...

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