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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#431

Post by lancewiggs »

subjectsigma wrote: post #408
lancewiggs wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude to assume someone else wants to go to your church, is into your sect of your religion, is into your religion or is religious at all. It's dangerous when you combine that with power structures from a work or other environment.

>it's rude to assume that someone else wants to go to your church You're not assuming anything, you're asking them if they want to come. They can always just say no. Not everything has to be the end of the world. Of course you could make up tons of situations where this could be inappropriate (I heard you had a drinking problem, would you like to try church instead?) but I think in general it's a safe question.

The askers' perception may be that it's a safe question, but there are too many situations where the question is dangerous. Do you really want to have to identify as muslim or non-chrich goer when working and living in the Redstates? Do you really want to have to identify as non-religious when everyone around you is? Will your religion - or lack of - transmit your political leanings, which are opposite to the others around you?

The invitation to a (particular) church can come across as part of a package of high pressure to conform to the rest of the team. I've received these invitations while living in the US, and yes, it was very uncomfortable.

If the invitation is from someone in power over the receiver then it may be received/perceived as an order.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#432

Post by xupybd »

lancewiggs wrote: post #430
xupybd wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inviting someone on a date to church does seem odd. But what about the following: Co-worker "What did you get up to this weekend". Me "Just the usual. Lazy Saturday, church took up most of Sunday, what about you". Co-worker "Not much just watched a few movies. You go to church? Really?" Me "Haha yeah I do, you're welcome to check it out if your interested."

In some countries that still plays very badly and it could change your relationship forever. In the USA, which is an extraordinarily religious country versus other Western countries, the response is likely to be more nuanced, but there are sill the many matters of which religion, sect and so on to consider. Going to a (particular type) of church risks being seen as a political statement as well. Best to avoid.

Ah I see. I guess location context is important. It seems odd to me as I live in NZ a very secular country, with little to no political implications of church attendance.

If anything I'd expect to get ridiculed for believing in something science couldn't prove.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#433

Post by genieyclo »

macspoofing wrote: post #240
genieyclo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with plenty of workplace couples, I'm not casting aspersions on them. It can and does work out great for many. I just personally believe in separating work and life. Sorry for the un-nuanced answer.

Yeah, some nuance is lost when you label everyone who asks a co-worker out on a date a 'sexual harasser'.

Not my intention, sorry you took it that way. What I'm trying to convey is: if the original person asking the question was looking for advice, you probably don't want to cross that line. Work is work. Other stuff is completely separate.

I could totally be wrong and love of his/her/their life is out there in cube H206. I'm just some person online.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#434

Post by fatbird »

dllthomas wrote: post #425
fatbird wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the frequency with which VCs have gotten in trouble for this before this week, that doesn't seem like an important consideration.

I'm not certain I'm interpreting your comment as you intend. Do you mean that this happens a lot and people have rarely got in trouble for it?

Yes, that's what I mean.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#435

Post by lancewiggs »

xupybd wrote: post #432
lancewiggs wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries that still plays very badly and it could change your relationship forever. In the USA, which is an extraordinarily religious country versus other Western countries, the response is likely to be more nuanced, but there are sill the many matters of which religion, sect and so on to consider. Going to a (particular type) of church risks being seen as a political statement as well. Best to avoid.

Ah I see. I guess location context is important. It seems odd to me as I live in NZ a very secular country, with little to no political implications of church attendance. If anything I'd expect to get ridiculed for believing in something science couldn't prove.

I live here in NZ too, and yes we have to be careful the other way - not to ridicule someone else's belief. There are a lot of religious people here, but religion is not something that people take to work.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#436

Post by paulddraper »

lancewiggs wrote: post #430
xupybd wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inviting someone on a date to church does seem odd. But what about the following: Co-worker "What did you get up to this weekend". Me "Just the usual. Lazy Saturday, church took up most of Sunday, what about you". Co-worker "Not much just watched a few movies. You go to church? Really?" Me "Haha yeah I do, you're welcome to check it out if your interested."

In some countries that still plays very badly and it could change your relationship forever. In the USA, which is an extraordinarily religious country versus other Western countries, the response is likely to be more nuanced, but there are sill the many matters of which religion, sect and so on to consider. Going to a (particular type) of church risks being seen as a political statement as well. Best to avoid.

I had a high school German teacher who said politics and religion were two taboos for polite American conversation, but Europeans can have more civilized discussion about these topics.

Is this not true?

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#437

Post by throwaway_quux »

stfp wrote: post #205
hendzen wrote: post #142

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented. If a male employee not in a position of hierarchical power innocently expresses his interest to a single female coworker in the entire course of his career, is he evil? Is it harassment? Probably not... But from their female coworker's perspective, that's enough to create a pretty steady stream of random attention. I think even t…

> One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented.

How are women hugely under-represented? Quick look at data.

Google tech: 80% male, 20% female. [0]

CS bachelor degrees 2014: 77% male, 23% female. [1]

CS bachelor degrees 2014: 82% male, 18% female. [1]

https://www.google.com/diversity/ [0]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2015/01/27/wo... [1]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#438

Post by rmc »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #194

A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…

> it's because the individual in question has a responsibility to make a neutral judgement call that will have a meaningful impact on your life.

The other reason: Sometimes an issue goes your way when you sleep with the powerful person. A cop decides to let you away with a warning, a boss gives you the job, the bank manager grants the loan/mortgage, the teacher gives you a good grade. (And conversely, you can be punished if you don't sleep with them)

If we want a real meritocracy, we need to stop flirting in the office.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#439

Post by rmc »

shams93 wrote: post #293
alexandercrohde wrote: post #194

A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…

We need to legalize prostitution so that an investor or manager who has these fantasies can play them out with professional help. If we viewed prostitutes as a form of health therapist and gave them professional respect rather than keeping them in the black market a lot of these guys could work out their power issues with a trained sex professional instead of creating these nightmares for innocent women who just want…

Plenty of places have legal prostition. It doesn't mean that bosses don't get sued for sexual harrasment.

(Prostitution should be legalised anyway, but maybe not for that reason)

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#440

Post by rmc »

daenz wrote: post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

When you're getting bad press, doing nothing/very little can be a bad PR move.
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