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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#421

Post by newnewnew »

edmond_dantes wrote: post #384

I am feminist. As a visible minority, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied man I try to be acutely of my own prejudices and cognitive biases. I sympathize with women who experience hostility and chauvinism at tech conferences. "Brogrammers" and male-exclusive behaviour is bad for the industry and should be written about and exposed. What these two men did was not sexist. It was unprofessional but it was not exclusi…

It looks like those that say the goals of feminism are to create a privileged class of women have some evidence. Women can now rule men by right of whether or not they are "offended" (note, that only the offense of protected classes are holy, and men are not a protected class).

Re: The PyCon Incident

#422

Post by Joeboy »

wpietri wrote: post #342
rburhum wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in SF. I am immune to feeling remotely discomforted by actions/sights/conversations like that.

I live in SF as well, and I would also probably feel safe. But that's because my lifetime risk of sexual assault is very low, and San Francisco is a pretty safe place. But if you need a different story to imagine feeling unsafe because suddenly people around you are talking about sex, I'm sure you can make one up. The point was to help Joeboy understand the feeling, not the specifics of the situation.

I understand the feeling of being scared, but I don't understand why a joke about a dongle would provoke it. It seems to me that the level of threat from a room full of people who are not joking about dongles is exactly the same as the level of threat from a room full of people, two of whom are joking about dongles. I am obviously not arguing that it would be impossible to tell a joke with scary content, but I haven't seen an explanation as to why these jokes were scary.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#424

Post by shardling »

ahelwer wrote: post #76

Warning regarding the comments here: r/MensRights has recently taken an interest in HN regarding this case. A recent HN thread on this same topic is linked on the homepage[1], and there's been discussion of HN in particular here[2]. There's an agenda being pushed. Furthermore, the above PasteBin alleges the forking innuendo was pure fabrication in an attempt to paint Adria as a liar; the full story right from the sou…

The forking comment in the guys own words: "I would fork that guys repo".

It might not have been explicitly meant in a sexual way, but it seems a little silly to not realise it would come off that way. And in fact, I'd say the only reason someone would find it funny would be the resonance it does have with sexual comments like "I'd tap that".

Re: The PyCon Incident

#425

Post by takluyver »

AnIrishDuck wrote: post #283
revelation wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their code of conduct also states that you may not take pictures of people without their express consent. I don't know why people concentrate on the issue of "who said what", that is such an extremely slippery slope I wouldn't dare going into it as a conference organizer. But taking pictures (and then spreading them to your followers) is a very, very clear no go.

I think this point is key. There's plenty of blame on both sides here. Yes, these kinds of jokes are immature and this conduct was ill advised. That said, taking ambush pictures of nonconsenting parties and very publicly shaming them shouldn't be your go-to response. I'd say that response was completely disproportionate to the initial crime. Far better to throw an (in person) "come on guys, be professional" their way…

It appears that PyCon staff did handle the incident, and did so sensibly and discretely:

http://pycon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappr...

It's not clear whether that happened before or after the photo was posted.

Edit: the code of conduct also says "Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#426

Post by shakesbeard »

wpietri wrote: post #333
shakesbeard wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That feeling of discomfort? The way your heart speeds up as you start wondering if you're safe? Women feel that a lot. Then I get out of the bar. Or look for some nice company (maybe talk to the bar man or find a woman in the bar?). Problem solved. > The jokes aren't what's offensive. It's when jokes sexualize a professional context in a way that makes women feel unsafe. Feel unsafe about what? Their safety? Those…

They talked with Adisa, so they probably did recognize that she was a woman. I am not drawing an analogy. I was trying to help Joeboy understand how jokes can sexualize a context in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable. As a frequent teller of jokes, I always try to match the joke to the audience. If religious people in the US faced a 1 in 6 risk of physical assault for their religion, you can bet I would be ve…

> They talked with Adisa, so they probably did recognize that she was a woman.

As far as I've read they talked to each other, not her.

> As a frequent teller of jokes, I always try to match the joke to the audience. If religious people in the US faced a 1 in 6 risk of physical assault for their religion, you can bet I would be very careful about telling any joke that might make them fearful. Wouldn't you?

No, because that's not healthy at all. It's words, and they are not directed at you, but at most about something you identify yourself with. If you're offended by such words (mind, I'm not talking about personally addressed threats or repeated bullying), that's your problem. There was a time when you got killed for making harmless jokes about authorities. I want people to be able to express themselves. And when people are talking bullshit, then call 'em out for being ignorant. Laugh about them.

Also I'd like some source for that 1/6 people faces risk of physical assault for their religion. What does that even mean? The risk? From whom? Are you trying to tell me that 16% are living in fear because of their religion? In the USA?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#427

Post by ErrantX »

wpietri wrote: post #297
ErrantX wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women feel that a lot. No, no they really don't! Don't get me wrong, there are major gender issues within our society (not just the software industry). One of them is, this idea that ''all'' women are tender hearted souls who are ''constantly'' scared of any man that looks at them funny :) There is a broad difference between discomfort and fear. And whilst the latter is significant, the core problem is the former.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

> You should talk to more women about this.

Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rhetoric.

You seem a decent enough guy, if a little clueless, so I'll give you more advice if I may. Making lewd comments certainly might make others feel uncomfortable (male or female), but the fear factor comes from attitude and presence, not the words.

For example; had these two guys been leering at Adria. And staring at her, deliberately raising their voices to project their jokes to her hearing.. that is the sort of behaviour that starts to become frightening.

No one has suggested this is the case. They made a joke between themselves, that made Adria uncomfortable. That is a far cry from her fearing for her physical safety.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#428

Post by lifeisstillgood »

potatolicious wrote: post #253
wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

> "You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry." Only if you live in a world where gay men are, by default, rapists. Are we seriously replacing sexism with homophobia? Your analogy is far more offensive than th…

I think the comparison being made is not the two guys are rapists, but that the two guys have a high likelihood of becoming embarrassing / socially awkward / please god just let me get on with my day and stop.

It seems to be a heavy handed way of putting most guys in the shoes of a woman hearing a similar conversation.

But I dont think it applies much to this sittu.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#429

Post by darkxanthos »

The real fear here is someone lost their job without all the facts being presented. That irrationality is scary. I don't mind being accused of something if I feel it will lead to a rational discussion. If this is true, then the issue is less the woman and more the company and our industry being irrational and emotionally and haphazardly ruining the lives of others.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#430

Post by nawitus »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #63
nawitus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One country doesn't define freedom of speech.

That's not the author's point. He was giving a definition relevant to the situation. Pycon happened in the US, so if there are complaints about freedom of speech at the event, the complainer is no doubt talking about freedom of speech laws in the US.

The law doesn't define what freedom of speech is, the law only tells what is legal in that particular country. The law in my country has different opinion from my own, and in fact it restricts freedom of speech. You can have a discussion about freedom of speech which is separate from any legislation.
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