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AI companies are shredding rare books

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Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#421
post #89
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue I see is, how could you tell which are those books?

We manage to do this for endangered wildlife too without anyone counting every single specimen; why shouldn’t we be able to estimate how rare a book is?

The same techniques roughly apply. You can look at all the book marketplaces and see how many of each title are available and it'll give you a rough estimate. If you look across all the marketplaces, all the library catalogs, plus eBay etc and zero copies surface, even going into Worthpoint to look at the last several years of eBay sales, then you know you have a problem. That's how I normally estimate it.

After that you are diving into forum posts etc to see if you can find anyone who has even mentioned owning a copy or having seen a copy.

I don't know what happens to some works. Supposedly thousands, tens of thousands, or sometimes apparently a million or more copies published and yet not a single copy surfaces for years.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#422

I've limited sympathy for the publishers. It pisses me off to reflect that they can sit on works until copyright expires, keeping them out of print. There's no real need for any of these so-called rare books to be rare while they're under copyright. And related to this, the books that are in print are mostly only in print in the shittiest way. I often see well-made books from the 17th or 18th centuries which are stil…

A friend proposed that copyright should just die with the author and / or their spouse and I'm left agreeing. I want books and music to be less strict on copyright. Some of my favorite YouTube channels break down music and songs, and go as far as recreating beats / tracks from famous hip hop songs, but someone at a record label company dings every one of their videos, they can barely sample a few seconds, its VERY CL…

What if the copyright is owned by a corporation?

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#423
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never read a coherent argument for why all of these "should"s should be. I understand you want to read the books. But I don't see how that desire results in the laws needing to be changed so that you can read everything you want, even things the author or owner doesn't want you to read. There is not a shortage of books in print. I don't understand why people get so hung up on a few of them being out of print. It…

> There is not a shortage of books in print. I don't understand why people get so hung up on a few of them being out of print. Because the point isn't so much in reading whatever text as if all text is the same. The point is the spreading of knowledge. A single book can contain knowledge not present in any other. > But I don't see how that desire results in the laws needing to be changed so that you can read everythi…

Which books are in copyright, not being published, and contain unique valuable knowledge? I've never seen this be the case. It's always some genre fiction or obsolete botanical text or something. I've never seen valuable knowledge locked away like you are describing.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years to make some money, and then we set the work free for the public benefit. If it's good enough for patents, I don't see why it isn't good enough for copyrights.

Either that or some exponentially increasing tax so that Disney can keep their vault. (I'm perfectly fine with them keeping it if they pay some proper taxes.)

They pay taxes every time that they make money off Mickey Mouse, regardless of copyright status.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Elon Musk is dying of thirst then the price of that glass of water is set at (pinky to side of mouth) one million dollars.

Doing that would be considered deeply immoral and sociopathic in any sane culture. Do you really want to live in a society that finds such attitudes acceptable? Instead of blindly jumping on a manipulated outrage bandwagon, people would do well to maybe read some of those old books, not even the rare ones - they tend to contain plenty of parables and stories explaining basics of morality and civilized conduct. We use…

Money is relative, though. I guess the question is if it's acceptable to charge a tiny symbolic fee for that cup of water if the other person's pockets are visibly overflowing with cash. If yes then it's more than reasonably to charge Musk a few million.

Turning it the other way around is it deeply immoral and sociopathic for someone to hoard massive amounts of money/resources if there are people dying or suffering around them (even if not on the spot but e.g. due to poor access to healthcare)?

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#427
post #416

It's just modern book burning. The contents don't even matter, you will never see the text and images in these books again.

I agree, this is bad.

They’re privately putting info into their LLMs, changing whatever they want, sorry, “sanitizing” then destroying the original.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#428
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a clear case of copyright infringement under current law. You can’t make a copy of a book and then give the original to someone else.

If it's copyright is expired why not?

The books in question are not antique. The Twitter post makes this claim but so far as I can tell it’s not based in fact.

404 Media published a story about this as well and cites a bookseller who notes that all of the books there have sold have had ISBNs (and are thus from 1967 or later and generally would have active copyright).

”very large purchases were of books that had little in common, except for the fact that they all had ISBNs. This seller also sells rare books that do not have ISBNs, and none of those were part of the bulk purchases”

https://archive.ph/9MQrK

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#429
post #398

I dunno. It's sad in a romantic kinda way, because of the lost artifact, but the information is what makes the book valuable, not really the medium. The out of copyright books don't really need to be destroyed anyway for them to be fair use for AI training, and arguable, even if you needed to, you only need one copy per title per company at most. So it's not a gigantic loss.

The gigantic loss is that they are destroying the original copy.

They aren’t verbatim uploading the text 1:1. They are creating vector embeddings and training documents from it, changing whatever they want since it’s in private and protected by NDA, and destroying the original source of information so that nobody knows what was originally recorded.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#430
post #61

It seems a key contention of theirs is the possibility that rare books are being destroyed this way, yet the things they cite don't seem to suggest this (based on their paraphrasing), they just throw the following at the end to make it seem like it's occurring to irreplaceable books: > You can't replace the last three copies of an 18th-century botanical text once someone shreds them for training data. And the judge s…

There is zero reason to shred 18th century books. Any such books are out of copyright.

Just sociopaths doing sociopath things. Bugger civilization.
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