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AI companies are shredding rare books

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Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#341
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should pay a fair amount. they should pay the marginal value that the next buyer would buy. Do you also think that a person dying of thirst ought to pay the maximum price they could possibly pay for water?

If Elon Musk is dying of thirst then the price of that glass of water is set at (pinky to side of mouth) one million dollars.

Doing that would be considered deeply immoral and sociopathic in any sane culture. Do you really want to live in a society that finds such attitudes acceptable?

Instead of blindly jumping on a manipulated outrage bandwagon, people would do well to maybe read some of those old books, not even the rare ones - they tend to contain plenty of parables and stories explaining basics of morality and civilized conduct. We used to teach that to kids at homes and in primary education...

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would create incentive to kill people

I would change it to "the expected natural life of the author" which is their birthday + 85 years. Regardless of whether they actually are still alive past that date.

I would accept that as well, but crank it down to like 62 years since their date of birth, presumably by the time they would retire.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was thinking along these lines... Let's say one of the books to be digitized and destroyed is the sole remaining copy of a book from 1850, which is now considered public domain. On one hand, hoarding such a book, stealing its content from the public domain, locking its content behind a for-profit machine, and destroying the only remaining copy is clearly wrong. It's equivalent to stealing a public resource, j…

I think this misconstrus what public domain is. It provides a freedom to circulate, but not access to the material. It is not a public owned resource. Turning a copy over to the public or state might be an interesting requirement for obtaining a copyright, but instituting that fix for new works now would have a 70 year lag time. Think of it this way, if I copyright a book and put it in my dresser for 70 years, that d…

I think you are right about the narrow legal distinction, although I was not suggesting that the public has a right to enter someone’s home and scan a book merely because its copyright has expired.

A privately owned physical book and the public-domain work embodied in it are different things. Keeping an old book in a dresser, even without providing access to it, is also meaningfully different from deliberately acquiring the sole remaining copy in order to extract its content, destroy the artifact, and preserve exclusive commercial control over the only remaining usable version.

Destroying the sole surviving copy would not literally steal publicly owned property. But it could irreversibly remove a public-domain work from practical human access and destroy a unique piece of cultural heritage.

In that very narrow situation, preservation, archival deposit, digitization, or public-access requirements may be justified, especially when the material is acquired for commercial use that depends on destroying or withholding the only surviving source.

The company would not be reasserting copyright in the legal sense. It would, however, be creating copyright-like control over practical access.

The work would remain legally free for everyone to reproduce, while the company’s conduct made it impossible for anyone else to obtain it.

I know there are more pressing issues than this one in the world, particularly those involving immediate human life.

But I also believe that the value we assign to human life is connected to the value we assign to human knowledge, memory, invention, and culture. When those things are casually treated as disposable inputs for extraction, something important erodes.

Companies should be free to use public-domain material commercially. The issue arises when that use creates a negative externality by permanently destroying the public’s future opportunity to access and use the work.

Mining our cultural heritage and locking away what remains is still extraction and exclusivity.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#344

The publishers sued AI companies for training on shadow library data, hoping to negotiate content deals for big $$$ down the line. Instead, they got analog hole'd. Turns out that buying an old book for $5 and destructively scanning it for $25 is way cheaper than paying extortion fees to the copyright-mongers. What I don't buy is it being "rare, precious books". First, they're not after ancient texts - they're after t…

Buying up old books is legal. Digitizing and distilling them arguably is too. And also: > paying extortion fees to the copyright-mongers Yes yes, greedy fat cat publishing oligarchs treading on the poor put-upon scrappy AI underdogs. /s Back in reality, the fraction of people who got into publishing books to get rich collecting rents is… not large. There’s so many other fields that are likely to reward participants w…

> Back in reality, the fraction of people who got into publishing books to get rich collecting rents is… not large.

That's because the business is buying copyrights in bulk from those people. Copyright-mongers ≠ publishers or writers.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would create incentive to kill people

I would change it to "the expected natural life of the author" which is their birthday + 85 years. Regardless of whether they actually are still alive past that date.

So if an 86 year old writes a book they can't copyright it?

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been determined that training on lawfully acquired works is fair use. Presumably in this discussion of shredding physical books Dario and Sam are not pulling heists at the local library. I’m sure there’s ongoing litigation, and better sources than this, but fair use was determined in June 2025 in a sf federal district court https://www.goodwinlaw.com/en/insights/publications/2025/06/... Similar conclusion vs met…

You don’t know what “Fair Use” is. Fair Use is not an activity that you engage in. Fair Use is not a category with criteria that you meet. Fair Use is not a precedent that paves the way for everything afterwards. Fair Use is a defense that can be used in court when you’re named in a copyright lawsuit. Fair Use is how you justify your actions before the court finds infringement.

Depends on jurisdiction, clearly.

e.g. Canada doesn't have fair use, but from wiki on fair dealing in Canada, "According to the Supreme Court of Canada, it is more than a simple defence; it is an integral part of the Copyright Act of Canada, providing balance between the rights of owners and users."

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. in the sense that they probably wouldnt want to do this but the law forces them to do an extremely dumb thing. they're paying for the books, no shady things going on there. whether the publishers should deserve more than a single copy's worth is a separate question. having the law such that its illegal to scan a book and then keep it, but legal to scan it and destroy it - gg no re there, law people retardmaxxed…

Law aside, destructive scanning is cheaper and easier. Cutting the book into individual pages would be happening regardless, because that is the easiest, fastest, cheapest way to scan it.

Not necessarily, since machines for non-destructive scanning were invented and perfected a long time ago. If this is still more expensive, this very discussion shows that improved optics would've made it more than worth it to pay that extra costs. Alas, the copyright laws took away the non-destructive option.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn't. Nothing about training a model requires this. You're thinking of copyright, which does treat information this way.

Sure, I'm conflating the tool w/ the people building the tool - but imo muddling the distinction is good, because the hard distinction is what tricks people into an unthinking mode.

No. Again, it's copyright that says "create a symbolic version and destroy the source, so that the thing may enter a controlled regime". Copyright is, in literal terms, a restriction on your right to copy.

Re: AI companies are shredding rare books

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "article" in question is a tweet. The "rare botanical text" is just an example the author of the tweet made up in order to generate sympathy.

The tweet is about a 404 Media article about the practice. It's linked elsewhere here.

Does the 404media article mention that rare botanical book? I saw an excerpt here elsewhere of their examples and it wasn't in that list.

Also I had a family member work in libraries. They got rid of books for very small prices based on how many people checked them out. Not how easy they were to replace. One example was a 100 year old gold leafed book they sold for £5 to someone who removed every page to sell separately.

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