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Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

mullvad.net

421–430 of 561 posts

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there are much better ways to enforce this - like just setting up proper parental controls on a device. Kids can’t buy their own phone. So parents can always enforce stuff at a hardware level if they set it up properly. It would be much better to just mandate that phones set up with a kid profile cannot access social media.

I've been battling with locking down my kid's devices for much of my life. I haven't found a parental control feature that works: we've tried several, but, generally, nothing survives the 'Hey, I'll just factory reset the device and start with a clean out-of-box-experience' bypass. Kids can figure this stuff out. Even when we thought that things were under control, kids can easily procure new devices. Many families d…

That is definitely a difficult battle to fight, but why do you think kids can't bypass these government-level restrictions just as easily as they can your own? Especially since governments are usually slow to respond to whatever method of bypassing it is used, if they respond at all (especially once it's no longer the topic of the minute).

People can bypass these restrictions with video game character creation tools, with generative AI, with a VPN (something that's very hard to ban in practice because corporations rely on them, and of which some are free), with copy-pasting random ID photos from the internet, with borrowing a parent's or teacher's or other adult's ID, with using a website scraping alternative (some of which can be self-hosted, or hosted by one child for many others) instead of the website itself, and so on. Heck, they can use websites hosted in Russia (or other countries), like a lot of pirates do.

And whatever the easy bypass method ends up being, they'll all end up knowing it, because they go to school and talk to each other, and because they'll always have at least some access to some parts of the internet no matter what.

Meanwhile, these age verifications laws are labeling all the children (who don't bypass it) as children, and that information WILL be leaked, inevitably, as it already has been (from Discord, for example - a service that shamelessly retains and processes every message it hosts, even after the user 'deletes' it).

When ID info is leaked, it leaks the child's age, their real name, and (often) their real address, their phone number, and their appearance. A surprising amount of information might be deducible from any selfie or video that was required. And in combination with an app's other data (or other data about them that has been included in databases and/or leaked and/or shared on the internet previously and which can be matched to them based on email or phone number or username or browser cookies or IP address or etc), it can leak their interests, hobbies, hopes and fears (discussed with friends), favorite hangout spots, the name and location of the school they go to, their regular routines or travel schedules, etc - anything at all that they might have discussed via the app, or whatever might be concluded just by their proximity to their friends (e.g. maybe they don't directly know that a kid lives in X location or plays Y video game, but if every day they talk to a bunch of other kids who definitely live in X location and play Y video game, then they probably live in X location and play Y video game too).

When all that data is leaked, all that data is now available to predators. And it's very, very hard to remove it from the internet after it's out there.

That data, even just from a single leak, could make it so easy for someone to target a specific child, contact them, tailor their lies to seem as trustworthy and likable to the child as possible, anonymously harass them online, threaten them, stalk them, or attempt to persuade them that yes, he does know their parents, and they definitely sent him to pick them up from school.

To me, all these laws seem realistically likely to do is unintentionally but significantly endanger the children they claim to protect. I don't see how it can be anything but a devil's bargain, even if we only "think of the children" and disregard other concerns.

At the least, it should have been proven to be more effective than regular parental controls before even being considered as an option, but so far, it doesn't seem to be so at all. And if there's little to no additional benefit, or we're not sure if there's a benefit or not, or if it's shown to be less effective, then why ever choose it over the regular parental controls that don't carry this huge additional risk?

As to enforcing age limits otherwise, well. I confess I don't think there is any way children won't just find a way around. I think the best defense is just educating children about how to navigate the internet and its potential threats, making sure the children don't see their parents as distrusting of them or oppositional (so that they feel comfortable enough to go to their parents for help or reassurance if there's a problem, instead of hiding the problem because they don't want to be yelled at for being on the internet or such-and-such website at all), and - an element I think a lot of parents miss - making sure they have a lot of appealing options for things to do or ways to socialize outside of the internet. If you occupy their time by indulging their non-internet-focused hobbies and interests (and maybe engaging in them with them, to spend time with them), or letting them visit friends in person, then that's time they're not on the internet and likely don't even want to be. I think that this is the option that best sets up the kid to continue having a healthy relationship with the internet after they turn 18 and are even more out of your control.

That said, as far as device parental controls go: instead of focusing on phone-level controls, I recommend using your router's network-level parental controls, as well as the phone line controls for whatever company you get your data form (if they have a regular smartphone, as opposed to a more limited one, which do exist as an option). For your own wifi network, you can even set it up to use a whitelist of devices so that your kid can't even connect to it from a non-approved device. That doesn't stop them from potentially still sometimes accessing the internet using a friend's phone, but it'd cut down on how the amount time they have that access, and do so more effectively than government age restrictions. And in any case, you also can't always stop them from looking at a dirty magazine that they find at a friend's house, or from reading a hateful tract that someone hands them on the sidewalk, or from watching a terrible channel broadcast on a TV in a diner. But you can potentially influence how they handle it when they encounter these kinds of things.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#422
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it is overreach since its fairly simple to implement and non obtrusive Those two things have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Something being easy to implement is completely unrelated to whether forcing its implementation is overreach.

Which is why s/he mentioned both of them. *This* law is simple to implement *and* it's unobtrusive. It's actually a really good way to solve the problem without creating privacy concerns.

How do you verify someone’s age reliably without identifying them? Unless there’s some standard around zero-knowledge proofs they’re implementing that I’m not aware of, they’re probably going to end up identifying everyone as part of this system, since kids will try and bypass it and parents will demand it be made more robust. Kids will still bypass it no matter what we do.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#423
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no controversy in having drugs, guns, alcohol, porn and other things 'behind the counter' - the intellectual debate over freedom of information is clouded by ideology. The first three are physical things, not information. Porn can be debated, but the current age verification push is trying to impose blanket control on the entire information ecosystem. It's the digital equivalent of requiring ID to go anywhe…

> It's the digital equivalent of requiring ID to go anywhere or do anything, rather than just a few well-defined things. Are you aware that most library systems across most of the world require someone to be 16+ to open an account and/or take out books and materials? That's not restricting anything, that's preventing abuse by those not intellectually or emotionally capable of regulating their behaviour. The parent of…

The library is one place out of the many places you could go, and the closest digital equivalent is a library website or an app. The Internet is not just a library, but a whole world of its own. We don't have blanket control laws that restrict all movement and speech in the real world based on verified age. The restrictions for minors are implemented at much more local levels.

We do need parental guidance like in the physical world, but such guidance should be issued by the parents, not the tech companies. Age verification is about giving your age and some other identifying metadata to the tech companies, and they hold the authority to decide what to filter. It should be other way around. The companies should expose metadata about their service and the content in their feeds via public APIs, and let people filter stuff locally on the device per the device owners' aka the parents' preferences. Oh wait. Such features will never reach mass adoption in the current software ecosystem. Software antitrust is a joke. These companies and the feds have the opposite incentives and do everything to sabotage local solutions. They've locked down what OS you can run on the hardware you bought, what apps are approved on their walled garden OS, and only the official apps can access their APIs. You don't have root on your own phone and it's a brick without remote authentication. Now they can sell you parenting plus many other things as their exclusive cloud service because "the market failed to deliver" and you can't really control what software runs on your own phone, much less your child's phone. This is the upstream problem and we ought to see it clearly and assign the blame correctly rather than trust those who deliberately created the problem to solve it.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#424
I hope [semi-]decentralized applications like Hyphanet and Matrix take off with teens as the lockdowns ensue, because they will grow into adults with the same cyber/cipherpunk mentality we '80s & '90s kids grew up with.

Rule 1 of The Internet hasn't changed, it's: never put your real info into the boxes. Never!

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#425
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think WWW will ever die but I can see a hard split coming eventually. Most people will just put up with the current state of the internet for a long time yet.

Gopher and Usenet died

IRC lives, discord be damned!

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#426

It's absolutely a slippery slope - but most parents know how this is a very real thing as well. There's no controversy in having drugs, guns, alcohol, porn and other things 'behind the counter' - the intellectual debate over freedom of information is clouded by ideology. Definitely the 'slippery slope' debate is worth having, but that's way more relevant than the 'should 10-year-olds be able to do whatever' (aka all…

>There's no controversy in having drugs, guns, alcohol, porn and other things 'behind the counter'

There is controversy! My grandfather and his schoolmates all regularly brought hunting rifles on their trips to the schoolhouse and home (1930s), to hunt opportune meals. There was never any problem with school shootings, which IMO are likely the fault of the prison-authoritarian style that schools morphed into during the latter-half of the 20th century. He had me drink shots with him when I was under 10 years old, because he wanted to make sure I knew drinking was ultimately a boring, uninteresting, stupid activity. Alcohol was always available and I was even welcome to partake anytime (as long as I did it at home)... I hardly ever touched the stuff, and still don't even now. He was a police officer and firearms instructor in a big midwest town, he even taught me how to shoot around that age. He taught me that government is neither god nor good, it is just raw power that has to steal from someone to give to another.

I miss my grandfather so much!

Also, thank goodness my folks were computer illiterate; I never had issues with blocking software (though I would probably have defeated any... easily). I grew up looking at porn and gore occasionally from my very early teens. Maybe try teaching your children about the world instead of hiding them away from it?

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the smartphone, the only device with which children could possibly view porn. I remember our famous pornless desktop computers at LAN parties in high school.

[flagged]

I agree with @protocolture (Robotech... nice). I will be handing GrapheneOS phones, Qubes OS laptops, and Mullvad subscriptions to my [future] kids and teaching them how the world really works and how to stay safe. I will teach them how to torrent, and how to sysadmin like it was reading and writing. I will teach them to treat the internet like a real life spy vs spy battlezone, basically always falsify and poison as much as possible, the vital information about one's self. I will teach them to hate both Apple and Microsoft, and the reasons why they should hate them.

What I won't do is lock them down, like so much of this comment section is in support of doing. I am disgusted by the death of the cyberpunk ethos from the turn of the millennium.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I agree with @protocolture (Robotech... nice). I will be handing GrapheneOS phones, Qubes OS laptops, and Mullvad subscriptions to my [future] kids and teaching them how the world really works and how to stay safe. I will teach them how to torrent, and how to sysadmin like it was reading and writing. I will teach them to treat the internet like a real life spy vs spy battlezone, basically always falsify and poison as…

Yeah pretty much where I am going to have to go with my kid.

I had a job interview at a school ages ago, and while I didnt expect to take it I still asked. How much of your security risk comes from inside the student population, and how much is external. And they said, 100% external. The students hadnt so much as knocked on a port in 10 years. And that horrified me. School as I see it, is a safe place to learn opsec, and you learn opsec by failing. Either that or these kids have the network completely pwned but I didnt get that feeling.

My kiddo will have a desktop soonishly and very much is getting an education in good opsec.

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#429
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again American capitalism ruins everything for everyone.

Without American capitalism you wouldn't have computers, the Internet, smartphones, AI, electric cars and countless other things. That, and the Costco hot dogs mentioned in another reply.

"The global Internets progenitor was the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) financed and encouraged by the U.S. Department of Defense.

In order to understand the wonder that the Internet and various other components of the Net represent, we need to understand why the ARPANET Completion Report ends with the suggestion that the ARPANET is fundamentally connected to and born of computer science rather than of the military.

The Completion Report goes on to differentiate the research ARPA supported from the research done by the computer industry: The computer industry, in the main, still thinks of the computer as an arithmetic engine. Their heritage is reflected even in current designs of their communication systems. They have an economic and psychological commitment to the arithmetic engine model, and it can die only slowly.12 The Completion Report further analyzes this problem by tracing it back to the nations universities: furthermore, it is a view that is still reinforced by most of the nations computer science programs. Even universities, or at least parts of them, are held in the grasp of the arithmetic engine concept.13

Computer networking was developed and spread widely in an environment outside of commercial and profit considerations, an environment that supported such research."

   Michael Hauben
   Netizens: On the History and Impact of Usenet and the Internet (1997) 
   IEEE Computer Society Press
   ISBN 0-8186-7706-6
https://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/book-pdf/CHAPTER 7.pdf

HN commenters/voters may reject the use of the term "military" in the origin story of the internet

That's fine

However it was American taxpayers, through the _Department of Defense_, that financed the creation of the internet

That's government spending, not "American capitalism"

The original internet was non-commercial and was not the result of "American capitalism"

As above, the American computer industry (capitalism) at the time was not focused on computer networking and using computers for communication, it was focused on computers as "arithmetic engines"

Re: Age verification for social media, the beginning of the end for a free internet?

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Without American capitalism you wouldn't have computers, the internet, ..." In fact, the internet was born out of the American military, i.e., government, and American universities, not "American capitalism" The first time I used this internet, there were rules against using it for commerce

The American military would not exist without the economic freedoms we have.

We don't have any of these so-called 'econonic freedoms'. Anybody can be de-banked at any time.
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